Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think we're all missing a key point here. Everyone is concerned about the parents being offended, or jewish people being offended by Wehrmacht Iconography. Both of these can easily be solved by a quick splattering of paint. Why is no one concerned about the GAMERS that will be offended by such a stand-in?!


German tanks did not use auto-cannons (at least not on very many MBTs), lascannons, and sponson guns! The stand-in makes no sense! Why is that giant CANNON firing a laser or little piddly auto-cannon shots?! Maybe for a Leman Russ, MAYBE. Why even bother scratch-building Rhinos and Land Raiders? We've already broken the barriers of reality and common sense! Let's go one further! German Half-Tracks for Rhinos, and... and helicopters for the Land Raider! Just cut the props off!

Heh, sorry, just a little rant. On-topic: I agree and disagree with all previous posts.

akira5665 wrote:No, iconography on the Luftwaffe was a totally seperate issue,

How so? The Luftwaffe is part of the Wehrmacht under the overall control of Adolf Hitler (Commander in chief of the Wehmarcht) just as much as 'Die Heer' (excuse my piss poor german grammar).

akira5665 wrote:Rommel who commanded the Africa corps, before being re-directed by Berlin HQ to leave, insisted that the Nazi's had nothing to do with the Wehrmacht Armoured divisions.

This doesn't remove the German national flag or the Africa Korps logo (both feature Nazi iconography) from his tanks.

akira5665 wrote:There were elements in every Panzer division that were SS, but as I said, they did not last too long. The SS marginalised Tank Commanders ended up being grouped into the one division, which was later wiped out after the Battle of Kiev. Thankfully.

The Waffen SS had many Panzer Divisions, they most definitely weren't all wiped out in Kiev.

[Edit]

I think you may be confusing the terms Heer (German Army) and Wehmarcht (German armed forces). The latter is defiantly tainted by the Nazi's and failing to see so is revisionism at best. Conversely the Luftwaffe gained respect from the German people during the latter stages of the war as much of their efforts were put into shooting down enemy bombers bombing German cities. The bombings are now regarded in some circles as war crimes.

George Spiggott wrote:

akira5665 wrote:No, iconography on the Luftwaffe was a totally seperate issue,

How so? The Luftwaffe is part of the Wehrmacht under the overall control of Adolf Hitler (Commander in chief of the Wehmarcht) just as much as 'Die Heer' (excuse my piss poor german grammar).

Because Luftwaffe iconography WAS totally seperate. Goering, being the ruthlessly adamant Nazi that he was, insisted the planes, pilots, soldiers, crew, and equipment of the Luftwaffe proudly display the symbol of the Nazi party, as a show of loyalty (if I recall correctly).

There were no such stipulations for Panzer divisions of the Heer. Therefore their imagery is much less offensive, on a tank by tank basis. Which is ironic since they were directly under command of Der Fuhrer.

George Spiggott wrote:

akira5665 wrote:Rommel who commanded the Africa corps, before being re-directed by Berlin HQ to leave, insisted that the Nazi's had nothing to do with the Wehrmacht Armoured divisions.

This doesn't remove the German national flag or the Africa Korps logo (both feature Nazi iconography) from his tanks.

Most tanks in wartime did not fly big red flags. The reason for this should be obvious...

And the swastika on the DAK logo is hardly noticeable, as the logo itself is fairly small to start. Not that it's really an arguement, just about every piece of a german soldiers kit had a swastika on it SOMEWHERE. That being said, there's nothing offensive about an M38 Bread Bag. The bread bag didn't commit any war crimes, the people who made it didn't commit any war crimes, and 99% of the people who used it likely did not commit any war crimes.

George Spiggott wrote:
I think you may be confusing the terms Heer (German Army) and Wehmarcht (German armed forces). The latter is defiantly tainted by the Nazi's and failing to see so is revisionism at best.

This statement strikes me as odd. Certainly no one is arguing that German High Command wasn't corrupt, even the ones who weren't self-styled Nazis (and there were so very few) carried out despicable acts, and most were tried and jailed or killed for these.
But I think the discussion is mostly about the everyday army, the ground pounders. And there was no more taint in these line troopers than there was in American, British, French, or any other country's soldiers.

Barring the SS of course. Those guys were.. nuts.

AlexCage wrote:Because Luftwaffe iconography WAS totally seperate. Goering, being the ruthlessly adamant Nazi that he was, insisted the planes, pilots, soldiers, crew, and equipment of the Luftwaffe proudly display the symbol of the Nazi party, as a show of loyalty (if I recall correctly).

This does not disprove their presence on equipment for other groups, as you say...

AlexCage wrote:...just about every piece of a german soldiers kit had a swastika on it SOMEWHERE.

We seem to be in agreement.

AlexCage wrote:That being said, there's nothing offensive about an M38 Bread Bag. The bread bag didn't commit any war crimes, the people who made it didn't commit any war crimes, and 99% of the people who used it likely did not commit any war crimes.

That's right, guns don't kill people, rappers kill people. Some people are offended, some are not it's a grey area. Put it this way, there will never be a pesticide called 'Cyclone' on sale in Germany again.

George Spiggott wrote:Most tanks in wartime did not fly big red flags. The reason for this should be obvious...

Although they are not 'flown' they are covered in large red flags for precisely that 'obvious' reason. German warships had them painted on the deck.

George Spiggott wrote:But I think the discussion is mostly about the everyday army, the ground pounders. And there was no more taint in these line troopers than there was in American, British, French, or any other country's soldiers.

It depends where they were fighting, there were no village clearances in Europe and Africa, certainly not on the level there was in the USSR. At what point to regaining national pride and uniting the German speaking peoples become a war of a aggression?

George Spiggott wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Because Luftwaffe iconography WAS totally seperate. Goering, being the ruthlessly adamant Nazi that he was, insisted the planes, pilots, soldiers, crew, and equipment of the Luftwaffe proudly display the symbol of the Nazi party, as a show of loyalty (if I recall correctly).

This does not disprove their presence on equipment for other groups, as you say...

AlexCage wrote:...just about every piece of a german soldiers kit had a swastika on it SOMEWHERE.

We seem to be in agreement.

Well yes, quite true, but where as everywhere else they were small and subdued, and are hard to notice at sight, the Luftwaffe used giant emblems on blazing contrasting backgrounds, for instant recognition. In iconography size matters alot, apparently.

George Spiggott wrote:

AlexCage wrote:That being said, there's nothing offensive about an M38 Bread Bag. The bread bag didn't commit any war crimes, the people who made it didn't commit any war crimes, and 99% of the people who used it likely did not commit any war crimes.

That's right, guns don't kill people, rappers kill people. Some people are offended, some are not it's a grey area. Put it this way, there will never be a pesticide called 'Cyclone' on sale in Germany again.

Ah! But they still use alot of the same iconography from WW2, just with removed Swastikas. The iron cross being the chief example. Which really says to me there should be no offense tied with that symbol (which is what I think the original topic was, I kind of forget at this point).

George Spiggott wrote:

Alex Cage wrote:Most tanks in wartime did not fly big red flags. The reason for this should be obvious...

Although they are not 'flown' they are covered in large red flags for precisely that 'obvious' reason. German warships had them painted on the deck.

That was an early war practice (as evidenced by the early war tanks). They promptly stopped that once the Luftwaffe no longer maintained air superiority, since it was just for recognition from the air.

George Spiggott wrote:

Alex Cage wrote:But I think the discussion is mostly about the everyday army, the ground pounders. And there was no more taint in these line troopers than there was in American, British, French, or any other country's soldiers.

It depends where they were fighting, there were no village clearances in Europe and Africa, certainly not on the level there was in the USSR. At what point to regaining national pride and uniting the German speaking peoples become a war of a aggression?

Well you certainly can't blame the soldiers for the purpose of the war. Again, they're just there to fight where they're told to fight. A good soldier follows without question. The questionable tactics of unscrupulous officers and the acts of overly eager and angry soldiers notwithstanding. Though the Soviets and Germans perpetrated their equal fair share of war crimes on each other, which really just served as escalation.

I have a picture (in a book) of a Panzer IV with similar markings to those in the picture above form 1943(ish). True enough, as the Luftwaffe's power waned this practice probably became less prevalent.

The Iron Cross predates the Nazi regime by quite some time.

I don't suggest that you'll never come across German WWII tanks without Nazi iconography, German many military vehicles were used (and made) after the war by various countries or their designs were influential upon new designs. On the other hand I don't think these things can be reused without thought for their origin.

AlexCage wrote:Well you certainly can't blame the soldiers for the purpose of the war. Again, they're just there to fight where they're told to fight. A good soldier follows without question.

We were only following orders eh? What does a good human being do? No need to answer, it's a bit off topic.

Huh. I thought you guys said the comic was irrelevant.

stonefox wrote:Huh. I thought you guys said the comic was irrelevant.

I don't remember saying that.

It's good that we have intelligent people here on Dakka.
George Spiggott and Alexcage, those are excellent points and responses.

Thanks for the info, I was not aware of a lot of the details.

Exalt.!

Anyway, they did believe that the German Icons should be covered up, or their son should use tanks from another nation. He did like the T-34's.

Walmart has prepainted 1/48 T-34s for a few bucks?

I might have to investigate for my Russian-themed IG cityfighters. I have some of the Tamiya 1/48s that I'll use in apocalypse, but they're too spendy to kitbash. Just how much is a few bucks?

stonefox wrote:Huh. I thought you guys said the comic was irrelevant.

Oh I maintain that it is, entirely. I just jump on the opportunity to discuss WW2 and the many misconceptions relating to it with much eagerness.

George Spiggott wrote:
The Iron Cross predates the Nazi regime by quite some time.

Which makes it a shame that it'd be associated with evil (with no small amount of help from the American Government's Propaganda machine of the 40s, of course), as it's actually quite a striking symbol, that could easily instill pride in a nation... provided your memory is very selective...

Although, technically, the Swastika also predates the Nazi regime by some many hundreds, if not thousands of years. Attributed to Buddhism and Hinduism. If I recall it generally means 'peace and love', if I recall. The Nazis were nothing if not ironic.

George Spiggott wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Well you certainly can't blame the soldiers for the purpose of the war. Again, they're just there to fight where they're told to fight. A good soldier follows without question.

We were only following orders eh? What does a good human being do? No need to answer, it's a bit off topic.

Just seems rather poetically tragic that the general's ideal soldier is far from an ideal human. In fact, he's a human with no morals or even thoughts of his own. That's what your officers are there for, to have morals and think for you.