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I know I like it.
It is different, but crafty. I'll be sure to try it out some time. If I proxy the temple guard with ordinary Sauri, I'd only need to buy the kroxi's.

I use regular saurus warriors as my temple guard.

Metal models? No way! Never again.

Its actually kind of an average list. Most take less temple guard and add in teradons for war machine hunting so the slan doesnt have to do it. Some also take a sarus char in the temple guard to kill enemy hammer units.
Most also take the 2+ ward save or dwarven gunlines crush them.

Its counters off the top of my head.
Teclis (pit of shades and your gone turn 1)
It almost doesn't matter what else is in the army as once the toad is dead the temple guard lose stubborn.

Bret flying circus or many other bretonian armies
There would be two main blocks with damsels in them and combat chars in them. Probably either grail knights or question knights. 11 men in each. Try magic missiling 11 knights with MR2 and immune to psycology...
The rest of the army is throw away stuff like 6 knights errant and pegasi which will easily run down the skinks in two turns them kill the kroxigores. The main knight units can win combat against temple guard even when in the front and not charging.

Any army that can shut down the slan's magic phase for more than 2 turns will kill it. Vampires could probably do this and be able to kill everything else in the army as well.

I'm still convinced a dwarven combat army led by an anvil guy will beat this. How many T4 3+save 5+ ward save guys can the slan kill a turn, assuming you get nothing off turn 1 and only 4 off turn 2-6 (and you dont get the good spells, just the small ones as the dwarf will save dice for the good ones)?
Lets see. 3D6 str 4 magic missiles = 11 hits, 5.5 wounds, 2.75 failed saves, under 2 kills. Not bad...
Dwarven machine gun (name escapes me) kills skinks every turn, anvil anvils the kroxigores until the dwarves are close enough then it makes them charge (read kroxigores dont charge unless the dwarves let them). Dwarves are easily able to ignore fear (runic banner) and they have enough stubborn tropes to move into position to destroy the temple guard.

But than you have to have your anvil focussing on the kroxis, you need to have an organ gun, which has to focus on skinks, while the skinks still have plenty of time doing their poison thing they do so well. Also the screening which takes away LoS, as they are obviously expendable. Also, Teclis might be one of the best mages in the game, but shouldn't a 2nd gen slann win a magic duel hands down?

I hate flyers.
I do usually take the 2+ ward save, but when I'm feeling like amusing myself I take the 4+ ward and make my saves anyway.
Pit of shades works great. Assuming I don't dispel it every single time. Granted, boxcars is unstoppable but what can ya do.
Never really had a problem with the flying circus. With the changes to the skirmish rules in combat, they're easy to maneuver off the battlefield (or at least out of charge arc).
I don't think much of the double block bret army, I'm sad to say I've just killed the rest of the army then used area spells to kill the blocks. You know, everything within 12" takes blah blah hits and MR doesn't trigger because it isn't targeted?
Knights errant and pegasi run down the skinks in 2 turns, and kill the kroxigor...and they take no damage doing it. Excellent. Pretty good against units with superior mobility. How one pulls it off is beyond me. I dunno, I've always enjoyed seeing flyers not be able to catch my "slow" skinks.
Even my own planned anti-magic army will have a hard time shutting down the slaan. Even at -3 to cast those magic missiles are still going off reliably, and nobody else seems willing to run 3 balefire carts. I plan on about 5 myself. Well anyway I've never had my slaans magic shutdown by anyone but me (poor dice rolls).
I like the dwarven combat army concept you put out. It's about the same as what all the local players put out. So let's see, how does one counter the prototypical dwarven army?

Oh right. Scout my skink priest and some skinks up to see the anvil. Move up 8" turn 1. Zap anvil repeatedly until it's dead.

Sit at 24" and zap the stunties. Feel free to charge my krox whenever I want to. Dance around the stunties with my skinks, shooting them to death at 8" and they can't do a damn thing.

Laugh to myself at the gak army dwarves really are once I spend 10 points and scout one guy across the table.

Yeah, dwarves suck.

Vidar wrote:But than you have to have your anvil focussing on the kroxis, you need to have an organ gun, which has to focus on skinks, while the skinks still have plenty of time doing their poison thing they do so well. Also the screening which takes away LoS, as they are obviously expendable. Also, Teclis might be one of the best mages in the game, but shouldn't a 2nd gen slann win a magic duel hands down?

Of course he wins the duel.

Rofl Teclis has to roll boxcars to get his good spells off.

The 2nd gen slaan doesn't.

By the way, did you know the slaan doesn't fit entirely under the pit? So it's not exactly instawin. 4+ to hit him.

Darn large monsters. I have the older model, you know. Comes in handy.

By the way, according to the faq gyrocopters are indeed subject to poison, if that was still an issue.

Stelek wrote:...boxcars to get his good spells off.

What's "boxcars"?

Boxcars is two sixes = irresistible

The slan's base is 70 MM across which is about 2.7 in. He fits under the 3in template.

O, and teclis gets irresistible force on 2, 2, 4, 5. Any double and is irresistible. Throw 5 dice and as long as he doesn't miscast your in trouble. Thats why he insta wins. And it he somehow fails (he too ignores miscasts) then he will simple throw the rest of the dice at drain magic and hope his 6 dispel dice + scroll slow you down for a turn.

Against bretonians the two big blocks cost a little less than your one big block. That leave a lot of points for cheep (less than 200 pt) units. You will get 2 turns of magic to stop those blocks from destroying all your skinks and kroxigores (nobody cares if you redirect 3 knights off the table as long as they took their target with them). Thats assuming the scroll caddies don't slow down your magic to much.

Incorrect on the base size.

I did say the old one.

Not the new one.

Really, doesn't fit. The corners peek out.

=====================

Now let's all see all the teclis based high elf armies running around.

*chirp*

I haven't seen any. Have you?

All the high elf players seem to forget lizards get drain magic too.

============================

So let's get this straight on the Bret vs Liz discussion.

Your throwaway troops cost 200 points. Mine cost 60.
You don't mind being run off the table as you believe you can survive my magic + my shooting on those units?

Here's a fun one. Let's say I hide my TG behind a hill or a forest, instead of sitting out in the open. I call it the 'delay bretonnia charge until turn 4'. I zap all of your little units dead, and I slow down your big blocks with useless charges and misdirects because well you brought big blocks of knights to a non-block fight and deserve the ass thumping you are going to get. You finally break through my little weenie skirmishers and my kroxigor, and you arrive at my big block. Now let's assume my skinks control 3 table quarters, and you contest the 4th (the one my block is sitting in). I've crushed the other 1/3 to 1/2 of your army, and for all that trouble you've netted 200-400 points worth of troops. You finally get the charge, with one of your blocks (see terrain blocking stupid bret players army from actually working the way he wants it to). Odds are, you win combat and I stay.
Now it's turn 5. You get your other block in.
By the time the game ends, will you have beaten down 30 temple guard? Odds say never. Will I lose half my blocks points? Yes. Do I win the game anyway? Yes.
The FLGS owner has a very annoying Bret army, I think it's 5 or 6 5 man lances (each with a character). It broke my slaan unit on turn 5 (I didn't really roll the dice the 2nd time, I haven't made that mistake again since) but I managed to get away and rallied. Then the game ended, and I had 3 quarters/700 points vs his 0 quarters 120 points. Hasn't played my lizards since. Calls them cheesy.

On the plus side, he's since started building a lizard army.

So your telling me your skinks can outmaneuver/kill pegasus knights?
Wow, them's some good skinks.

Those three magic missiles you seem to love will kill an average of .6 knights or less than a third of a pegasis knight per turn. Ill be nice and give you the high lore of metal spell but will scroll it 4 times so it wont go off until late game. So how are you killing those knights so fast?



Also, each of those lances will kill 10+ guys on the charge. Add in the kills from grinding and you aren't gonna last for long in combat with them.

I've played against teclis many times.

And you need to read his rules. He goes irresistible on any doubles except 1's. No one in the game gets off that one crucial spell better than Teclis.

So he wins that duel every single time. Every time I've faced him I've had to hide the whole temple guard block and use the skink's LOS. It's at best a coinflip and the betting man takes the teclis army to win.

And any Bret player that can't beat you is one craptacular bret player. The lances and pegs should run over all the skinks by the second turn, followed up shortly by the krox. Then the slann is locked in hth with nothing in his front arc to zap. If you own even a single quarter by the end of the game your opponent has done something seriously wrong. And I love how your example is that you're M4 block gets away from a unit of cav to rally, so your list therefore is solid. You don't need to be good if you're lucky, right?

Wow you guys bring 4 scrolls?

How's that work out when facing a non-magic list, being down 100 worthless points?

Most bret players are craptactular, it's the mindset. Hmmm, move everything forward turn 1, charge turn 2. Gee, wish they'd use tactics.

I'm still pretty amused how brets auto-win my army. Or one special character.

I give one example, and the same old crap from you.
100+ games, I've been broken once. I got lucky, and got away. My list is solid because of the former, not the latter. But you don't care about that, so long as you can get a cheap shot in, right? Right.

Well, when you're right, you're right.

I'll just say that this bret player would have no trouble making everything but the slann and temple guard disappear by turn 3, and then grind away half your temple guard and get a minor win from you.

Stelek you keep spitting erroneous information at us about how you've never lost a game, etc. We can't verify that. It's hearsay at best. Leave it out of the convo, it makes you seem like you think your the greatest out there. And if your list never loses, then your opponents suck. Even the best generals in my gaming group lose from time to time. I know not one person who hasn't been beaten with a list, no matter how "solid." Maybe you haven't lost a game, but that fact or fiction doesn't belong anywhere it can't be proven.

Bastirous666 wrote:Stelek you keep spitting erroneous information at us about how you've never lost a game, etc. We can't verify that. It's hearsay at best. Leave it out of the convo, it makes you seem like you think your the greatest out there. And if your list never loses, then your opponents suck. Even the best generals in my gaming group lose from time to time. I know not one person who hasn't been beaten with a list, no matter how "solid." Maybe you haven't lost a game, but that fact or fiction doesn't belong anywhere it can't be proven.

I agree with Bastirous about this part. Nobody is saying you never lost with the list, nobody is argueing your skills as a general. I even think the consensus here is that your list is decent (eventhough some find it one sided). I can honestly say I really like your ideas here, but you have to admit, it's hard to believe you have won a streak of 2 years playing with it. I'm not sure how many times you played exactly, because I can count the number of games I played from the last year on two hands.
Otherwise I have to comment on the many replies here where people come in with anti-builds. I bet that every decent player who knew the weaknesses of this list could have beaten it, but that doesn't mean they DID know. For instance, after reading here for a long while, I know that everyone who has a coming battle with lizardmen, is really expecting that JSOD & sallies. If all his opponents expected this, or didn't even know the army, they could never have seen this kind of list coming. I really hate arguements like:" against that list i would use this, that's why your list isn't good at all." "oh my, anvil of doom, too bad suddenly I'm using this HElf magic item that ruins its mojo", "oh, you put in 2 BT's on your 500 list? let me make mine, oh looky there, a vast number of skirmishers."
All I'm saying is, this list isn't perfect (but really, none is), but you could give Stelek more credit about how he actually countered a lot of arguements and has a solid, decent and very original list.

Stelek wrote:I use regular saurus warriors as my temple guard.

Metal models? No way! Never again.

my temple guard are saurus warriors that have the heads of the spears cut off and replaced with hand weapon heads. And then I add on all the extra grubbins.

Tacobake wrote:

Stelek wrote:I use regular saurus warriors as my temple guard.

Metal models? No way! Never again.

my temple guard are saurus warriors that have the heads of the spears cut off and replaced with hand weapon heads. And then I add on all the extra grubbins.

What kind of hand weapons?
And what's grubbin. I really need a source for all this gamer/converter slang...and maybe one for standard army lists and kits for lords/heroes as well (cause everyone always has specific kits in mind which they don't explain but all the rest seem to understand, same for well army lists, that or they are having a real big joke on my neck)

you'll pick it up along the way, and eventually be able to use the same jargon. I've been playing for five or so years now, and i now this is sad, but i just figured out what MoK and such were.

Back to the topic. I never said i didn't like the list, just the arguments about it. guys this list may be one sided, but many lists end up being that way. and yes we can debate all day who can bring something to beat this list, but gamers who make list just to shut down one opponents are jerks. You'll lose most of your games as you probably won't play that one army every other game. So suck it up and admit this list can be kinda nasty.

sure it has some holes to exploit. such as the ability to either mow down, or chase all the skinks away, and the lack of fighting units, but that's why WHFB is way better than 40k. In 40k you can make an unbeatable list, in fantasy not. It takes a good general to win, even with a superb list from the cheese factory.

Every list has it's weaknesses.

I base my statements on fighting armies you'd field regularly.

I've tried to get my FLGS to understand that 1-off armies are fine, but meaningless if you don't play the same balanced army for a series of games.

You can only learn your way around Warhammer by playing the same list over and over again.

Many game systems are like this. Play till it hurts.

I get my ass handed to me when playing new game systems and new armies. Learn, adapt, rebuild, repeat until victories occur reliably. *shrug*