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Stelek wrote:Of course, one shot can take down a skimmer.

True enough, but there are also equal odds of 17 shots not taking down a skimmer *shrug*. It all comes down to the dice in the end.

Of course, that's because I'm not running 1200 points of 'Save The Tanks' army since it isn't very effective--just annoying.

No one is telling you how to run your army, we are mearly discussing the possibilities of the new edition and it's interaction with a potential army build. No need to get bent out of shape over it. I must however agree with you that playing against such an army would be annoying. Playing with it might be fun once or twice but I would imagine it would get boaring fairly fast.

I'm not bent out of shape, Phoenix.

It's an annoying and as you noted, boring list.

It's very much a rock, and then you run into a army that can shut you down in multiple ways.

Tau remove your cover saves.

Assault armies bypass your cover save.

Hood armies can stop your fortune.

Nothing makes for a perfect army, and relying on a cover save is risky for Eldar as it is anyway.

I dunno, I tried it a couple times and there are quite a few balanced lists I ran that just laughed at it.

And I really am feeling that with the new LOS and cover rules, that 3-5 eldar tanks will be hard to keep in 4+ cover against a decent opponent. If you aren't moving those 6" you don't gain even the 5+ save, which is a lot worse, and sitting still will cause a lot of hulking wrecks. I do see it as a strategy, but just not the sure thing it has been this edition. Always glance with holofields was amazing, and there were really few counters for it. 5th it looks like there are all kinds of counters to the same style of list.

... falcons are good but the wave serpent just got a whole lot better ... ok firstly main gun is twinlinked, secondly the energy field make atacks a lot less powerful, thirdly since no tanks are scoring they come out cheaper and finaly this rule (from the pdf) meens that they'll finaly be uses full for transporting

"DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will
include a transport option, allowing a vehicle
to be selected together with the unit. These
transport vehicles are known as Dedicated
Transports. Their great advantage is that they
do not use up a slot of the Force
Organisation Chart, but they are normally
lightly armed and armoured. Other heavier,
more powerful vehicles may also have a
transport capacity, but such vehicles are
chosen separately and occupy a Force
Organisation chart slot of their own (for
example, the mighty Space Marine Land
Raiders).
The only limitation of a dedicated transport is
that when it is deployed it can only carry the
unit it was selected with (plus any
independent characters). After the game
begins, it can then transport any friendly
infantry unit, subject to transport capacity
and other special exclusions, as explained in
the vehicle’s entry (it might not be able to
transport terminators, for example)."


so basicly drop off your DT unit go pick some one else up ...

so it doen't get holo fields so what


though deffenceive weapons now being strenth 4 or less does make me wonder about arming all eldar tanks

Toreador wrote:If you aren't moving those 6" you don't gain even the 5+ save, which is a lot worse, and sitting still will cause a lot of hulking wrecks. I do see it as a strategy, but just not the sure thing it has been this edition. Always glance with holofields was amazing, and there were really few counters for it. 5th it looks like there are all kinds of counters to the same style of list.

Funny enough, eldar tanks just got a whole lot harder to kill...by really a lot. In 4th edition, you always glanced skimmers because they were always moving over 6" a turn. So once you did damage them (and you got a glance) there were 2 results on the chart that killed them, 5 (immobilized) and 6 (destroyed). Now if you compare that to a skimmer that is standing still in 5th edition, you get something similar. A roll of 5 (destroyed) or a roll of 6 (explodes) is needed to destroy the skimmer on the penetrating chart and none of the results of the glancing chart will kill the skimmer. This is because immobilizing a skimmer that moved less than 6" in a turn just makes it land safely. Only skimmers that moved over 6" crash and burn when immobilized. So now to kill a static skimmer, you have to actually penetrate it rather than just glance, so they got tougher. If you have them sitting in 4+ cover, they get even harder to kill.

Looking at math
4th ed skimmer moving fast (no cover, no holo field, etc.) av 12, being shot at with bs4 las cannons takes 6.75 shots to kill (obviously more with the holo field, but the math on that gets much more tricky and comes out the same in the end)

5th ed skimmer moving 6” or less (no cover, no holo field, etc) av 12, being shot at with bs4 las cannons takes 9 shots to kill. If you then stick the skimmer in 4+ cover, that number doubles up to 18.

Now if you look at a moving skimmer, they are still slightly tougher than they used to be. The 4th ed glance chart had 2 fatal possibilities. The 5th ed glance chart has 1 fatal possibility and the pen chart has 3 (since when moving at high speeds, skimmers die when immobilized). However, all shots have a 33% chance of being ignored due to getting a 5+ cover save from moving fast.

Now for math.
5th ed skimmer moving fast (no cover, no holo field, etc) av 12, being shot at with bs4 las cannons takes 8.1 shots to kill. So from this we can see that the extra “protection” offered by moving fast is kind of a double edged sword. While you are more likely to avoid taking any kind of damage (since you get the cover save), when you do take damage, it is more likely to kill the skimmer since immobilized results = death.

Eldar vehicles did not just become a lot harder to kill.

They are a lot, and I mean a LOT, easier to kill.

I stand by my claim that VE are always a good investment unless you have 5 or more tanks. Especially for transports. Now cutting out the possibility of crashing at all on a glance- that's really nice, especially for Wave Serpents with their Field.