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Well Stelek that wasn't very good Ideas that's saying if The IG player deploys his units like that.

Which Would be stupid.

IG gunline is amazing and still will be in 5th.

What do you metagame so you cheat before you play.

And good for you that you move 180 models in 5 min.

IG SAFH is fine I dont see why you think there Fethed

IG can't be cahrged into after a combat thats great and youd probelly put your horriable unit s in 1st.

ChemInhalers are funny as hell now btw.

They count no Negitive Modifers at all so you could be LD 9 IG if you lost by 25 you'd still be LD 9

I wonder if sentinels will become more popular against Ork hordes. Charge them in and only the ork nob can hurt them, and if you do it right he's on the far side of the combat. Three machines would be 120 points at the cheapest, vs a 220 pt unit of orks.

I believe fearless casualties come from how much you're outnumbered by, not how much you lost the combat by.

I think that's the only time outnumbering comes into play in 5E whatsoever, as it certainly doesn't affect the break test or the combat results.

Nope, fearless, et al take armor saves for each wound lost by. And this is for each unit that lost the combat. You also do not take wounds if you can't be hurt (eg wraithlord facing unit without a powerfist).

Yea but Gun line is fine if not better.

Rements will be better for use 5 man squad with flamer= Road bump

Alot of guys keep saying that.

You sound like the Empire fanatics that swear by 10 man detachments.

Uhh...ok I shoot them away.

Then what?

Right.

:S

Well, if you shoot the remnents, you've done one of three things:
1) shot a small, lousy unit with a good shooting unit (meaning valuable units live longer)
2) had a medium fire power unit (tornado, dreadnought) get lucky
3) shot with the unit you were about to assault with, and now can't assault.

Even if you didn't shoot with the unit you planned to assault with, you might now no longer be able to assault. If you still can, you would have anyway (multiple charges being how IG get slaughtered), so there's little difference.

If the gambit works, it works well. If it doesn't, it doesn't lose the IG player anything he would have lost anyway, arbuably saved better units from firepower, and only cost 36pts.

I'm not saying it's a great tactic, but I dont' think it should be dismissed quite so easily.

There's what, a 100 men in a decent sized guard army?

The weakness I see in a gunline is that you can't fit all 100 guardsmen into cover unless it's city fight. No cover means no cover saves, no cover saves means that a good chunk of your gunline is at risk of already being dead when the enemy hits the rest of your lines.

You could just stack squads behind each other, true, but on the other hand, that'd severely weaken your shooting by giving your opponent that cover save from your heavy weapons.

Orchewer there's a couple things you can do to overcome the coversaves issue, and it might be irrelevant anyway in 5th (most of the games I have played every unit on both sides was getting 4+ cover with few exceptions)... Volume of Fire. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more and more autocannons and Heavy Bolters and less and less Lascannons.

1) You don't need to eliminate a remnants squad to make it useless. Breaking it or reducing it to a single man is enough.

2) 200 men is a decent sized guard army.

3) You can give cover saves for all units in a high model count static army no matter how much terrain there is or isn't.

4) Shooting armies in 5th have to be very focused on shooting, and putting out huge amounts of fire. It's not less lascannons, it's less non-shooting units.

Then You wasted shots at IG --at a 36pt IG squad thats a waste of Firepower. Lets think here you have a squad of 10 tac. Marines Shot at 5 rements to get to others you just wasted 20 shots on 5 guys.

It's pretty simple Math your taking your one unit that cant charge anything else and wasting to get rid of the road bump in the way.

If you Charge them you waste a charge.

In the End there more of a road bump.


Off Topic : 10 man detachments are amazing and would feth you up in Fantasy (your armies without a doubt)

Why would tactical squads be shooting at remnants?

Be serious.

Empire detachments are crap (like the rest of the army).

See Dwarves for more general fantasy sucktitude.

Stelek:
How big is a "standard" army considered to be? I think I might be doing something horrendously wrong when a standard guard army outnumbers my planned nids...
</tangent>

I think IG have the only viable gunline option out there, I can't see a Tau gunline making a huge return.

I agree, Tau gunlines are amusing but IMO not viable.

Not the kind most people think of, anyway.

For 2000 points, I'd say the following formula works well:

Your base unit cost = Y, add a 0. If over 80, divide by 2. If under 80, multiply by 2.

So if you end up costing 15 points, add a 0 and are then at 150, divide by 2...gives 75. A doable number.

Guard, you would be under (60) so should then multiply by 2 and arrive at 120.

For 1750, you probably should multiply Y by .8 instead of 10.

If you are using your basic troops, it's a decent rule of thumb.

If your army isn't based on those troops, toss it out the window because it doesn't matter.

Stelek wrote:For 2000 points, I'd say the following formula works well:

Your base unit cost = Y, add a 0. If over 80, divide by 2. If under 80, multiply by 2.

Wait - if what is under 80? The number of models in your army? The points cost for the model? I'm interested in your equations, but wouldn't mind some clarification on the variables you're talking about....

Stelek wrote:So if you end up costing 15 points, add a 0 and are then at 150, divide by 2...gives 75. A doable number.

Guard, you would be under (60) so should then multiply by 2 and arrive at 120.

For 1750, you probably should multiply Y by .8 instead of 10.

If you are using your basic troops, it's a decent rule of thumb.

If your army isn't based on those troops, toss it out the window because it doesn't matter.

Oops sorry yes the number of models in your army, the basic ones.

If you are going without vehicles, that is.

Vehicle heavy armies should really max out the highest armor, or the max number of choices of armor that are all equal threats (aka dreads + defilers or rhinos or land raiders but generally never all three mixed).

Then What would You shoot the Rements With ? Or how would you take care of them.

You be Serious OOO....Gun Line is Very Good in 5th and you dont know what your talking about.

Your Attack Idea with the Orks wasnt very good one.

**Once again off subject. Stelek detachments are great. Do you play tier one Dwarve Gun Line Like Skaven Gun Line.

If I'm facing a IG army with no tanks?

First off, odds are I'm going to move all of my units forward unless they are say a unit like Lootas.

I'd use long range heavy weapons to kill remnants if there are no tanks to shoot at. After all, remnants are vulnerable to such where regular IG squads of 10 are not.

Detachments suck like the whole empire army, dwarf army, and most fantasy players know this.

Take away steam tanks and the anvil...and wow what a joke.

5 Imperial Guardsmen aren't extremely hard to kill...or break...

orchewer wrote:5 Imperial Guardsmen aren't extremely hard to kill...or break...

Now that's a damn lie!

orchewer wrote:5 Imperial Guardsmen aren't extremely hard to kill...or break...

Kill maybe, break I disagree. They'll be using the same unmodified LD 9 as everyone else most likely, maybe even LD 10 (if commissars are in the Command squad).

I still think gunline will be fine in 5, but it wont be the gunline we are used to. Different units serve differnt roles in 5. Obvious purpose built counter assault units will be priority targets early and with TLOS almost impossible to hide.

Lascannons in guard become dramatically less effective as the addition of a 4+ coversave halves thier allready very low kill per shot percentage.

I can see ig gunline going over to high volume heavies and flamers or gls ( maybe, need to see how bad they still suck in 5th) Anti tank through d/s ing melta vets and vehicles. Counter assault through roadbump use of flamer equiped infantry squads.

This is just my first idea, im sure I am wrong on the specifics but I am sure that the gunline will have to evolve dramatically to retain it's effectivness in 5th.

That goes for most all armies, so its not a specific weakness for gunline.

Depends what the gunline is shooting at.

If it's shooting at a few tanks, those Lascannons can still be just fine.

If it's shooting at alot of tanks, it might not be so dandy...

Your Still wasting it on 5 guys.

You dont understand You've wasted shooting on 35pts worth of men.

Gun line is fine in 5th. But you keep thinking that.

(And fantasy you dont now what your talking about)
Droping it.

Is shooting down a speed bump so your units can get into assault with other units considered 'wasting shots'?

Apparently mathhammer > tactics.

orchewer wrote:Is shooting down a speed bump so your units can get into assault with other units considered 'wasting shots'?

No, it's not wasting shots. I think the point here has been lost. Placing a speed bumb forces the opponent to either assault it (and not what he'd rather charge) or shoot it (and not what he would rather shoot).

Nobody will deny that a dedicated shooting unit (devastators, termies, lootas, stealth suits) would rip up the remnants. What I would say is that if they spend a turn shooting the remnants, they're not shooting the heavy weapon teams, the command sections, etc. that are actually offensively powerful.

There was the claim that incidental shooting, shooting from non-optimized sources that could take care of five IG could reliably handle it. This is think its spurious. Any plan that includes breaking an IG squad runs into the fact that they have LD8 with ID pretty reliably, and that means they only break ~30% of the time. As for actually wiping them out, keep in mind that pretty shooty units like a Tornado or a Dakka Fex won't always wipe them to a man, and that's assuming no cover!

In my mind, the question is: is a 36pt remnant squad worth it to hassle and tie up my opponents resources? To that, I say yes it is.

Mathhammer is the base of all tactics.

Adepting to the times when your randomless puts you in places where you dont wanna be is also tactics, abit less mathy tho.

Mathhammer is the basis of all tactics only insofar as it looks at probability. You don't want to try for results that are statistically improbable. So you use mathhammer to decide what objectives are possible, and you build your tactics around what's likely to happen, rather than what you want to happen.

But mathhammer that talks about "making points back" is not relevant to 40k. I often use 1000+ points to kill 300-500 points with my Sisters of Battle list. Why? Because the opponent loses 1/3 of his points while I lose nothing. The way some people do mathhammer, they say that excessive pointage is a "waste" mathematically. But that's completely wrong. Equal pointed units rarely have the chance to wipe each other out. If you throw a 100 pt unit at another 100 pt unit, there's a good chance you'll get slow attrition for the whole game... When you throw 500 points at 100 points, the enemy gets part of their army obliterated, permenantly depriving them of a strategic asset. It's the "efficiency" and "making points back" side of matthammer which fundamentally misunderstands how you play 40k effectively.

And then there are the times your pair of Devilfish gundrones pops a Leman Russ by shooting at its rear armour .

I've not yet read the rulebook...but is there/has there ever been a rule that prevents one unit charging into multiple units?

Nope, no such rule.