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I completly agree with you Holden. I cant believe this crap made it passed Quality Control.... Oh wait thats right, GW doesnt know what the heck the word quality is. Gw for once needs to hear the "PoP" then actually listen to its player base on what needs to be changed and leave the rest alone!

holden88 wrote:I agree with the OP and think that the Kill Point system is heavily biased towards certain armies. My 1500 Ork army offers up no less than 13 kill points!

1 - Ork Warboss
2 - Ork Boyz Mob
3,4 - Ork Boyz Mob with Trukk
5,6 - Ork Boyz Mob with Trukk
7,8 - Ork Boyz Mob with Trukk
9 - Wartrak squadron
10 - Buggy squadron
11 - Stormboyz Mob
12 - Looted Wagon
13 - Battlewagon

Now personally, I think this is a nice balanced list. It performs reasonably well in the other two mission types but it certainly isn't built to capitalize on those missions. It is extremely challenging to win an Annihilation game though. Except for the Battlewagon, all of my vehicles are very easy to destroy. It's extremely hard to hide them all safely in the backfield. And if they are hiding away from danger then they certainly aren't helping my boyz get their job done.

I faced a 1500 Marine army that only consisted of 6 kill points (A Commander, Terminator Command Squad, Land Raider, 3 Tactical Squads). In the end I ended up killing all three tactical squads, the Terminator Squad and his Commander. This earned me 5 Kill Points. He destroyed all three of my Trukks, My looted Wagon, A squadron of buggies and one Ork Boyz Squad. Now on Paper I killed about 1250 points of his stuff and wiped out all but his Land Raider. He killed around 500 points of my stuff and I still had seven units running around the board. However because of Kill Points he ended up winning 6-5!?

When the enemy is ignoring my Ork Boyz squads to shoot at the empty Trukk behind them, then something is wrong with the scenario design here.

Well it could be worse think of it this way the guard by choosing the bare minimum compulsarary choices has a total of 10 KP before taking even a single sqaud more.

1 HQ
1 HQ Retinue
1 Platoon HQ
1 Platoon HQ Retinue
2 Squads
1 Platoon HQ
1 Platoon HQ Retinue
2 Squads

Yep thats 10, complete BS

Are we sure that the Command squads are counting as 2 seperate units for Kill Points? I mean the points for the Command Squad staff are included in the points for the officer. The Command Squad is not optional and the Officer cannot leave the Command Squad. I've always seen IG Command Squads treated as one unit for deployment and all other purposes. Other Retinue's are different as they are ussually optional and really are a seperate unit. Finally the Guard Codex doesn't actually say that the Command Squad staff is the officer's retinue (which is what the Annihilation references).

But they are an IC and retinue

You could do the guard with 2 less (AF squad instead of another platoon)

yakface wrote:
Use Kill Point ratios instead to determine the victor.

That's a good idea. Too bad the 5th ed rules were written by a translator who couldn't figure out simple ratios like outnumbering 2:1 or we might have seen this in the actual rules.

broxus wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:Don't forget the other bonuses Guard get, though. Not being able to consolidate into fresh squads, blast weapons (read: ordnance) being more effective, vehicles being tougher, less plasma overheats and so on. I don't think it's all doom and gloom as you seem to believe.

Sure they dont die as fast but comon think of hard it is to wipe out any SM squad then imagine how hard it is to destroy a IG squad. Doom and gloom is a understatement. If that scenerio comes up IG are in for a HUGE disadvantage, guard die in droves they are meant to with a 5+ save. What makes it worse they are forced into 10 man squads while other horde armies are not.

An IG army can have easily 15-20 KP in their army a SM well can have easily 25% of that and be more deadly.

Given the bonuses we've been given in this edition, I think it balances out.

1. Most of time, we'll have a free 4++ save.

2. This edition favors volume of fire. There are few armies that can put out as much firepower as we can.

3. 4th ed. forced us to maneuver due to area terrain. Now, most armies have nowhere to hide. (expect that to change once people start making blocking terrain.)

4. CC units that actually make it to our lines will kill the first squad they come into contact with... and will then be shot by everything else in our army, leaving only a pile of smoking boots/ claws/ hooves.

I'm okay with having more KP's.

Typeline ... you can only use one shooting phychic power per turn no double mind war as it is a shooting atack (i am an eldar play so i read the rule very carefully) so tell him to read the rules

yakface wrote:

My suggestion for anyone in charge of running a tournament who wants to use something like Kill Points:

Use Kill Point ratios instead to determine the victor.

A great idea BUT, with the death of Armor Save Modifiers in 40K came the death of Math...

Sadly...

Polonius wrote:It's pretty bogus. I can't wait to roll up Annhilation with Dawn of War deployment. I figure I can save 2.5 hours and just shake my opponents hand and concede.

Even more so if he manages to seize the initiative.

Ravenous D wrote:

Polonius wrote:It's pretty bogus. I can't wait to roll up Annhilation with Dawn of War deployment. I figure I can save 2.5 hours and just shake my opponents hand and concede.

Even more so if he manages to seize the initiative.

Cheer up, emo kids. I really dislike the fact that the internets seem to be focusing on the negative aspects of this change over, and are ignoring the overall positive aspects of 5th Ed. change over.

Are you putting your precious LD bubbles (command squads) on the front line, giving your oppenant 2 KP's? No. You're hiding them, letting them do their job. Hide them behind blocking terrain. Or failing that, behind a tank, maybe?

Oh, but we don't have tanks on the first turn, you might say! Well, you've got night fight. Hang those hq's back and see what happens. Between cover and not being able to see your LD bubbles, your guys should weather the first turn just fine. In fact, having 65+ guys on the board when the other guy has 26 at most (meqs) might be a bit of an advantage in your first turn.

Change your tactics to the mission. If you've built a balanced force, moving the rest of your army on the board on your first turn won't kill you.

Are we at a disadvantage during a KP mission? Yes. Should we admit defeat before the first die is rolled. Hell no.

Valhallan42nd wrote:
Cheer up, emo kids. I really dislike the fact that the internets seem to be focusing on the negative aspects of this change over, and are ignoring the overall positive aspects of 5th Ed. change over.

First off, I think myself, and nearly everybody else, have been pretty enthusiastic about the changover. This is one discussion in a relatively obscure forum, not the main topic on Dakka Discussion or News and Rumors or even Tactics. So settle down, I love 5th edition I lot, I just think that one heavy handed mistake partially undid all the excellent work they've done with the rest of the rules.

Second, regardless of how much complaining is done, some of it has to valid, right? I mean, some carping is just carping, but some has a legitimate beef. I've never been overly fond of people who decide "there's been enough complaining" and decide to insult those that are airing their concerns. And yes, I know that emo kid isn't exactly fightin' words, but it's meant to denigrate the posters and minimize their concerns.

Are you putting your precious LD bubbles (command squads) on the front line, giving your oppenant 2 KP's? No. You're hiding them, letting them do their job. Hide them behind blocking terrain. Or failing that, behind a tank, maybe?

Well, I've been told endlessly that it's harder to hide in 5th ed. Even with a 3+ go to ground save, won't savvy opponents go out of their way to kill command sections? I'm not saying there aren't ways to minimize the enormous weak spot for the IG, I'm just pointing out that such a weak spot exists, and that it does so in no other army. Yes, I can play smart, but so can my opponent, right? I can hide survivors from squads, go to ground, etc. But so can my enemy, right?

Oh, but we don't have tanks on the first turn, you might say! Well, you've got night fight. Hang those hq's back and see what happens. Between cover and not being able to see your LD bubbles, your guys should weather the first turn just fine. In fact, having 65+ guys on the board when the other guy has 26 at most (meqs) might be a bit of an advantage in your first turn.

By my reading, which seems pretty supported, Dawn of War starts each player with 1 HQ Unit, and 2 troops Units, not choices. Trust me, if it were choices, I'd do a little jig. I think you'll agree that things are a bit more bleak there, eh?

Change your tactics to the mission. If you've built a balanced force, moving the rest of your army on the board on your first turn won't kill you.

Are we at a disadvantage during a KP mission? Yes. Should we admit defeat before the first die is rolled. Hell no.

Well, I was partially joking about admitting defeat, but only partially. I think If I rolled Annhilation/Dawn of war with my normal force, and my opponent was playing, say, Necrons... I might just call it a day and ask for a new mission. I'm not saying I don't mind a challenge, but I get to play pretty infrequently, and I'm not wild about setting up my IG to get mowed down in a rigged mission.

Finally, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "balanced" force. Are you saying you have a copy of the IG codex that includes units that work really well coming on the board on turn 1? Sure vehicles work well (and I'm dumping all infantry for three tanks and some hellhounds), but more than half my infantry (which is my anti-tank, btw) starts off the board and is just legging it. I suppose so are my opponent, so I can move on, run, and set up for shooting on turn 2. I'll have to try it out, but I still think that IG are the army least able to make the changes to these mission types.

Look at the scenario in a different light. Let's say he goes first, and moves his army onto the board before you.

You see where he deploys, giving you a huge advantage on where you want to place your units for maximum effect. Most of his army will be a maximum of 12 inches onto the board, with the exception of his HQ and Troops. Most of his stuff will be out of range or of limted effectiveness vs a horde army. (Most anti-p is shorter range).

True, your HW won't come on line until turn 2 due to them being infantry based, but your tanks can roll right on and fire at those hq and troops so close to you, assuming you make those night fight rolls. Since you'll probably have a few points here and there, you'll probably have searchlights on those tanks, so you'll be able to fire on those forward elements with all of your army if you fire the tanks first. You can still fire that ordinance on the move and it's just as accurate either way. There's a way to adjust to anything on the board if you've got a flexible force.

.... just had a funny thought Demoltion Charges now scater 2D6-BS" S:8 AP:2 large blast (and ordance) now combine that with colonel schaeffers last chancers you've got 4 models that can clear away a unit of SM like no ones business ... ok there gone die quickly once thats done but at 31points (= model + upgrade + charge) thats not too bad for a deepstike/infiltrate fearless guy ...the rest (if you want more) could be equiped as a heavy weapns squad (at BS 4 thats not bad) just a thought

Red_Lives wrote:Yes they do?

And that is the wording i was referring to. So ARGUMENTS BEGIN!!!

(keep in mind if guard don't get this they are SHAFTED in Dawn of war)

Actually, not really. Have you read it? Units not on the table aren't necessarily in reserves, so as long as you aren't declaring them in reserves, they'll all march on on your first turn.

Now keeping in mind that the enemy also got only two troops, what are you really worried about? Units have to deploy 18" away, so the only things that can assault will be beasts, of which only tyranids really have in the troops slot. And if they wipe you out in assault, or even if they don't but you run, they'll be facing down an entire army of rapid-fire when your whole army moves on.

Even more assault-oriented armies like orks are going to take massed fire if they try to advance too quickly, and they'll have only two troops units to your entire force, as the rest of their stuff gets left behind to enter via reserves or walk on their first turn.

-Spellbound

I was surprised, pleasantly, that they changed it to a flat 1 kp per squad. Now the AV 14 landraider is worth as much as a 5-man remnant squad? ok...

Also, don't transports count as units? They also give up 1 kp, meaning mechanized armies are giving up quite a few too, no?

Also remember that you need to kill EVERY model to get a unit dead. If you're lucky enough to still have a heavy weapon be the last member of the squad due to the way saves are made, it's up to you to leave it there to shoot or move it, but with true LOS one single model, the last of his unit, could duck between windows of a building and stay there forever! They'd need to root him out. Plus, if they've got 10 marines and they have to choose between the 10-man squad with the heavy weapon or the 1 man for the kill point...and then you lose a LOT of bolter potential.

So I think it's fine, really. KP hurts but so does wasting a units' firing to kill 1 or 2 guardsmen that have no special weapons.