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I think all Terminator-based armies are losers, actually.

Until Termies get FNP, improved toughness, a second save attempt...something to make them not rely on the 2+ save on T4...well, they suck quite frankly.

If they get FNP, yes it'll be a scary day. I am sure I have said several times that the new Marines are going to rock your world.

Anyway on to a breakdown of your points in a second post.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Then you toss in the volume of fire (kills termies dead)

Just for academic purposes... (I'm not really all that excited about talking deathwing until after the FAQ) What platforms are we talking about for this fire saturation. There are platforms that output lots of shots that are difficult for terminators with DWA, but there are also some fire bases that fall apart very easily, when they can't control the range between themselves and their target. Of course i will give you a great deal of latitude when it comes to some shooting... Sisters spam is not so easily handled by terminators, but open topped armor 10 vehicle squadrons are. When people on message boards talk about armies, they tend to talk about how either a list wins every game it plays, or loses every game it plays. I think there are some lists that wreck deathwing, and i think deathwing wrecks lots of lists when played well. And this is before some people have adjusted to orks, and before a rumored 'big deal' FAQ.

Well let's see:

Chaos is Noise Marines. They do outshoot you. You have a 2+, they have a 3+. 5 points less for the NM. Call it a wash, but if you lose your LR early to oblits...you'll lose your termies at a horrifying rate to the oblits.
Chaos Oblits can kill your LR and punk your termies too. How many termies are walking away from a fight with 3 oblits?
Chaos Demons assault you, and you die.
Smurfs have heavy bolter devs and lots of heavy bolter/auto/ass units.
Eldar have scatter lasers.
Necrons have heavy destroyers.
DH have psycannons.
WH have exorcists.
Orks have lootas.
IG have everything.
Dark Eldar have plasma for your termies and lances for your raiders (aka the autoloss).
Nids have T6 devourers and laugh at your terminators storm bolters and nerfed asscannons.
Tau have range and mobility. Missile pods and plasma fire.

Did I miss anyone in the torrent of fire list?

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:the incoming horde of meltaguns (kills land raiders dead)

Again, Of course I'm going to give you this one for some cases. Deep striking guardsmen can trade their 75 point unit for a 250 transport. Fire Dragons, although more costly, can also easily trade, and control the circumstances of that trade. But that's 2 out of what... 14 armies? I'm sure I am forgetting some units here and there. Triple multi-melta from obliterators will wreck a land raider, but will the fearless assault termies be within 12" of those oblits after they skip out... unharmed... (rhetorical... yes they will) and now that is a 225 point unit traded for a 250 point vehicle. Are we talking about drop pods? Single BS4 meltaguns as a consistent killer of land raiders? Or is this another 50 point +/- trade again, with the land raider getting the advantage in kill points?

Actually the list here is also long:

Smurfs get lots of mobile multimeltas, lots of meltaguns, and the ability to bring assault marines with meltabombs. I guess you'll see when the new dex comes out.
Dark eldar get blaster bikes.
Eldar get TL BL Wave Serpents (kill you at long range, so no "trade" occurs.)
Necrons have heavy destroyers.
DH have stormtroopers (or sisters, or IG) that have meltaguns.
Sisters have meltaguns up the ying.
Chaos can take out LR with oblits, and they can have a stunning amount of meltaguns and flamers if they go that way.
Tyranids, problem with LR? They can't kill them very well at range (but you'll probably be stunned the whole game) but at close quarters? Tyranids own terminators at close range when built for 5E (meaning, none of those crap lists everyone was running around with in 4E and calling uber) so you have the worst of both worlds in your face PDQ.
Tau make LR cry, but I assume you know that...since they are the best killer of vehicles in the game.

So, Orks have a tough time of it, that's what PK nobs and warbosses are for.
Chaos Demons have no good answer except a CC charging soulgrinder, who will crack your LR open and smash your termies.

Shep wrote:I'm not going to try and say "get ready for deathwing to dominate". But it is more than a little hyperbolic to say that they are just destined to lose to any well built army. Some armies deal with orks through high volume dice throwing, half of those armies get those shots from sturdy platforms... half of them use speedy, flimsy platforms... Terminators can handle one, not the other. Other armies handle orks with blasts... blasts suck against termies. All of these army builds will also need to invest in said meltaguns to handle land raiders, these same meltaguns that are completely terrible against 180 orks.

Problem is, termies fire 24", move 6", and most of those 'flimsy' platforms move 12" and fire 36". Don't you see a problem with this analysis?

Meltagun units do perform terribly against orks.

That's why you bring torrent units, and you bring long range anti-tank units, and then you bring meltagun units.

You can eff around and bring different units to the table if you want to, or mix n'match...but that doesn't make for a good army in 5E.

damnit Stelek.. I'm going to get hand cramps from the cutting and pasting...

Stelek wrote:
Chaos is Noise Marines. They do outshoot you. You have a 2+, they have a 3+. 5 points less for the NM. Call it a wash, but if you lose your LR early to oblits...you'll lose your termies at a horrifying rate to the oblits.
Chaos Oblits can kill your LR and punk your termies too. How many termies are walking away from a fight with 3 oblits?

I'm gonna concede an advantage to chaos. But there are already some comments. Lash gets hooded sometimes.. although not much with dark angels, when it does get hooded 1 plasma cannon shot = 1 terminator hit unless you get a sweet scatter.

Obliterators do well against termies from range... thus the advantage i concede.

How many termies walk away from a fight with oblits? Did you mean the lightning claw bannered belial unit I had in that LRC... umm all of them walk away from it.

Stelek wrote:Chaos Demons assault you, and you die.

a rare oversimplification from Stelek Alternately, I shoot demons, and they die. Just like you taught me I'll take an advantage in this matchup if I know what I'm doing. I fear seekers... but I have the "deploy wide with a good spread, then collapse backwards, plugging MCs with mass wounds with storm bolters and ACs" move memorized.

Stelek wrote:Smurfs have heavy bolter devs and lots of heavy bolter/auto/ass units.

Yes that is what space marines COULD have... the ones I see now have missile devs, they do have pred destructos occasionally which can duke it out pretty well against me. I have also not seen the amount of stuff you've seen on the new vanillas... Like you said "i'll just have to see it."

Advantage space marines. Now if they can just not lose to every other xenos race, and get some skilled players to stay interested in them, I'll worry

Stelek wrote:Eldar have scatter lasers.

No they don't... Eldar HAD scatter lasers... Then I DWAed, and shook, weapon destroyed and wrecked 10 of them. Eldar saturation is one of the ones I'm confident in countering. Now propse a game against a warlock bike council, and until I get FNP I'm just gonna concede the advantage.

I've seen this game play out more than twice. DWA works here...

Stelek wrote:Necrons have heavy destroyers.

Stelek... come on! Necrons? and worse heavy destroyers? Come on! Each termie unit that DWAs will pick one of your 3 heavy destroyer units, you'll never see a WBB... Necrons versus termies is just silly. I'll take the advantage there. You knew I play that damn terrible army! haha

Stelek wrote:DH have psycannons.

I haven't gotten a chance to look at your newest demonhunters armies very closely. I' like to say that a deathwing army can ROCK any non-carefully laid out DH army. DWA to defeat the shrouding, chainfist the land raiders. Just outshoot them. We are talking about standard tourney demonhunters here.

Having not seen the crazy tech you've fond buried in that mess of a 3rd ed codex, I won't call an advantage against 'your' demonhunters. But against the crowd, you know thats not a good matchup.

Stelek wrote:WH have exorcists.

exorcists? sisters have sisters... I concede... you can have this one...

Stelek wrote:Orks have lootas.

And the lootas are really the key to the game. I'm glad you left it at lootas, because it shows me that you know exactly what an all termie army can do to units of shoota boys. A well maneuvered well played terminator force can selectively dismantle the rabble. but like I said way earlier in this thread. If lootas hav a game, you can't really counter them. Your 45 lootas are more of a threat to termies than the average loota count of 30. 30 isn't enough MOST of the time. I already said advantage orks, but I'll revise after FAQ.

Stelek wrote:IG have everything.

IG are terrible. IG have 18 kill points, IG have to spam russes and hellhounds to even stay competitive against orks. After they spend those 800 points, they STILL can't afford to bring in balanced tools to fend off marines. It absolutely slays me to say this.. I LOVE my vostroyans, all 7k points of them. I might not even be able to bring myself to take them to vegas after reading the announcement that we'll probably have 40% of our games be kill points. WTF. Maybe fully mechanized chimera spam hurts a little. But that list has 8 BS 3 multilasers and the rest is almost entirely template. My roommate has been doing very well against me in both versions of the list.

Stelek wrote:Dark Eldar have plasma for your termies and lances for your raiders (aka the autoloss).

The auto-loss indeed. I can't wait for that army to get re-done. Such a volitile mixture of utter crap and insane over the topness. Pistol lascannons on BS4 troops for 5 points? Really? hehe. Advantage, dark eldar.

Stelek wrote:Nids have T6 devourers and laugh at your terminators storm bolters and nerfed asscannons.

And I laugh like hell at their deathspitters, barbed stranglers and gaunts... Where did the genestealers and the dakka fexes go? Gone so soon? Close combat MCs with cover saves like you've posted seem pretty cool, and a classic 4th edition stealer/dakka fex build beats me. But its long gone around these parts. I'm seeing spinegaunts and stranglers and spitter warriors. Belial and co, tear through gaunts, 18 strength 6 hits per turn still takes down MCs. This matchup is entirely build dependent. The more people that read your CCMC tactica the more I'm in trouble, but the more the nids focus on the green menace with templates, the less real dakka they have.

Stelek wrote:Tau have range and mobility. Missile pods and plasma fire.

Tau have plasma and thats it. If they took 9+ crisis suits, I'll worry. But aren't we talking about the fact that 9+ crisis suits has no place against orks? I'm gonna DWA with my termies, and I'm gonna drop as many crisis suits as I can on the drop. Are you going to spread your suits out? And risk losing turns trying to get those plasma shots back inot my tiny DWA deployment. Or are you gonna clump up, and get outshot locally? Kroot and firewarriors coming into this equation? I'm seeing lists that spam fire warriors, and I'm seeing lists that focus on mobility. Not both... Both of them have weaknesses, and I've personally seen both lists weaknesses exploited against termies. Not a theory discussion, I've played out the games. Once their plasma is spent, the tau have to hope for enough armor fails to take terminators down to a man. In objective games, termies just do the damage they need to do to the ap2 early, then climb into an objective in cover, turns go by tick tock until the tau player realizes that he can't get close to belial (or shoot him... thanks apothecary) nor can he take all of the three termie units that are squatting objectives down beyond their last man.

You can make some pretty firepower lists out there with tau, but my experience has shown me that they dont have the ork-like spam of rapid fire shots, while maintaining a balanced list, that isn't vulnerable to other types of lists.

Stelek wrote:Did I miss anyone in the torrent of fire list?

Nope, and I've taken some of those matchups back... You've given up on termie armies, i get that... It's not really your playstyle. Understandable. But that doesn't make them not good.

Stelek wrote:Smurfs get lots of mobile multimeltas, lots of meltaguns, and the ability to bring assault marines with meltabombs. I guess you'll see when the new dex comes out.

Cool, looking forward to it. The patchy rumors I've gleaned from the net lead me to believe that the new marines look really weak. It's good to hear that the pieces fit when you see the whole thing.

Stelek wrote:Dark eldar get blaster bikes.

We revisit the auto-loss.

Stelek wrote:Eldar get TL BL Wave Serpents (kill you at long range, so no "trade" occurs.)

are you taking those? I'm not being facetious.. I really am curious. So spendy. doesn't seem a very Stelek move. But if you or anyone else is taking them... then ok, theres one. (I have not seen anyone seriously take them. I see fire dragons with shurikannons ramming things and tank shocking... but I haven't seen the 45 point bright lance.)

Stelek wrote:Necrons have heavy destroyers.

No, necrons HAD heavy destroyers, before my turn started... remember

Stelek wrote:DH have stormtroopers (or sisters, or IG) that have meltaguns.

In lists where I'm advocating taking land raiders this can be a problem. I use DWA for distance closure against stand and shooters, and against aggressor armies, I let them invest the wasted points on maneuvering and speed, I'll just deploy on the table. They'll have to put those meltas into termies. They have to hit, wound, and I have to fail a save, then i get to eat their lunch.

Stelek wrote:Sisters have meltaguns up the ying.

wow, that just conjured one of the more filthy yet totally kinky images into my brain, that'll stay with me this weekend.. haha

sisters have the tools to beat deathwing. Conceded.

Stelek wrote:Chaos can take out LR with oblits, and they can have a stunning amount of meltaguns and flamers if they go that way.

I'd love them to have a stunning amount of flamers. I'm in terminator armor remember? But I won't speed over your point, they can have lots of meltas, and plasma cannons. Not an easy one to face... advantage chaos... revised after FAQ.

Stelek wrote:Tyranids, problem with LR? They can't kill them very well at range (but you'll probably be stunned the whole game) but at close quarters? Tyranids own terminators at close range when built for 5E (meaning, none of those crap lists everyone was running around with in 4E and calling uber) so you have the worst of both worlds in your face PDQ.

I love that tactica BTW... I think you've probably tipped everyone in utah off about it, and I think its a really cool build... but people out here are stuck on barbed stranglers... land raider is all kinds of good against the nids I've been seeing lately.

Stelek wrote:Tau make LR cry, but I assume you know that...since they are the best killer of vehicles in the game.

yeah, I guess if you have the LR against them, you abandon the idea of riding in it and hold the former passengers in reserve, Try to drive it as far as you can to block LOS to an objectve, and scoot a termie unit behind it at game end. I like my 6 termie army better W/o land raiders, and tau is a big reason why.

Stelek wrote:So, Orks have a tough time of it, that's what PK nobs and warbosses are for.

Is that before or after the crusader opened up on them, the entire army shot at the shootas, and a belial/banner/claw unit ran out and started chopping off heads?

Warbosses are good at killing land raiders. But tell that to the big meks that are firmly lodged in the 'best hq' catagory.

Shep wrote:damnit Stelek.. I'm going to get hand cramps from the cutting and pasting...

Me too...

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Chaos is Noise Marines. They do outshoot you. You have a 2+, they have a 3+. 5 points less for the NM. Call it a wash, but if you lose your LR early to oblits...you'll lose your termies at a horrifying rate to the oblits.
Chaos Oblits can kill your LR and punk your termies too. How many termies are walking away from a fight with 3 oblits?

I'm gonna concede an advantage to chaos. But there are already some comments. Lash gets hooded sometimes.. although not much with dark angels, when it does get hooded 1 plasma cannon shot = 1 terminator hit unless you get a sweet scatter.

Obliterators do well against termies from range... thus the advantage i concede.

How many termies walk away from a fight with oblits? Did you mean the lightning claw bannered belial unit I had in that LRC... umm all of them walk away from it.

I mean after you get double tapped with the plasma, and one LC termie runs in. Then gets fisted.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Chaos Demons assault you, and you die.

a rare oversimplification from Stelek Alternately, I shoot demons, and they die. Just like you taught me I'll take an advantage in this matchup if I know what I'm doing. I fear seekers... but I have the "deploy wide with a good spread, then collapse backwards, plugging MCs with mass wounds with storm bolters and ACs" move memorized.

Yeah I know, it was. IF demons assault you, you die. How's that? Not that I expect them to.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Smurfs have heavy bolter devs and lots of heavy bolter/auto/ass units.

Yes that is what space marines COULD have... the ones I see now have missile devs, they do have pred destructos occasionally which can duke it out pretty well against me. I have also not seen the amount of stuff you've seen on the new vanillas... Like you said "i'll just have to see it."

Advantage space marines. Now if they can just not lose to every other xenos race, and get some skilled players to stay interested in them, I'll worry

Yes, they do need both of those factors to keep them going.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Eldar have scatter lasers.

No they don't... Eldar HAD scatter lasers... Then I DWAed, and shook, weapon destroyed and wrecked 10 of them. Eldar saturation is one of the ones I'm confident in countering. Now propse a game against a warlock bike council, and until I get FNP I'm just gonna concede the advantage.

I've seen this game play out more than twice. DWA works here...

Ah see I didn't realize you were DWA, that would change some of my comments a bit.

Personally I'd spread myself out at 'flat out' speed if I got to go first, so I would at least have a cover save. If I can get a re-roll on, the Vyper units will live.

War Walkers are still crap but against you DWA, wouldn't they scout in? Still die after, but they can hurt you badly for a turn.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Necrons have heavy destroyers.

Stelek... come on! Necrons? and worse heavy destroyers? Come on! Each termie unit that DWAs will pick one of your 3 heavy destroyer units, you'll never see a WBB... Necrons versus termies is just silly. I'll take the advantage there. You knew I play that damn terrible army! haha

Well that was said thinking you were setting up on the board.

I'd zoom the units of heavy D to the table corners so you can't rend/CML any dead without getting past the 3+ cover save...and if you run into a 30 scarab army, you will never get shots on those heavy D's.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:DH have psycannons.

I haven't gotten a chance to look at your newest demonhunters armies very closely. I' like to say that a deathwing army can ROCK any non-carefully laid out DH army. DWA to defeat the shrouding, chainfist the land raiders. Just outshoot them. We are talking about standard tourney demonhunters here.

Having not seen the crazy tech you've fond buried in that mess of a 3rd ed codex, I won't call an advantage against 'your' demonhunters. But against the crowd, you know thats not a good matchup.

I have mystics to give me shots. I have alot of fire, but I don't bring plasma cannons to deal with termies in my retinues, so it's mostly about peppering you with annoyance fire from 9 HB and 3 psycannon shots. Not exactly overwhelming. lol plasma cannons seem too stupid good, so I opted out.

My DH list is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213341.page

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:WH have exorcists.

exorcists? sisters have sisters... I concede... you can have this one...

Sisters also have Sisters, who wreck you too.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Orks have lootas.

And the lootas are really the key to the game. I'm glad you left it at lootas, because it shows me that you know exactly what an all termie army can do to units of shoota boys. A well maneuvered well played terminator force can selectively dismantle the rabble. but like I said way earlier in this thread. If lootas have a game, you can't really counter them. Your 45 lootas are more of a threat to termies than the average loota count of 30. 30 isn't enough MOST of the time. I already said advantage orks, but I'll revise after FAQ.

I run 45 because there's nothing I can't deal with, except what Orks can't deal with anyway (AV14 via shooting).

Rabble indeed. I've not had a problem laughing at 180 ork armies. It's really a race, can I make him put them away as fast as he took them out?

Often, I can.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:IG have everything.

IG are terrible. IG have 18 kill points, IG have to spam russes and hellhounds to even stay competitive against orks. After they spend those 800 points, they STILL can't afford to bring in balanced tools to fend off marines. It absolutely slays me to say this.. I LOVE my vostroyans, all 7k points of them. I might not even be able to bring myself to take them to vegas after reading the announcement that we'll probably have 40% of our games be kill points. WTF. Maybe fully mechanized chimera spam hurts a little. But that list has 8 BS 3 multilasers and the rest is almost entirely template. My roommate has been doing very well against me in both versions of the list.

Actually against the DWA, the Last Chancers (with Improved Comms for deep strike insertion probability control) own you. Sure, everything is pretty weak against termies but if I kill everything you have that shoots me, and let Belial kill one unit a turn...uhh, won't I drag him and his uber unit down eventually? That was my experience with Belial, he didn't have a big enough footprint to really crush the enemy. I made a super unit variant of the DH list, solely to make sure I could take down 3-4 units at a time.

I posted the list here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215908.page

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Dark Eldar have plasma for your termies and lances for your raiders (aka the autoloss).

The auto-loss indeed. I can't wait for that army to get re-done. Such a volitile mixture of utter crap and insane over the topness. Pistol lascannons on BS4 troops for 5 points? Really? hehe. Advantage, dark eldar.

Well it was a Gav/Jervis list. Just wait till you see the Space Marine Codex. lol

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Nids have T6 devourers and laugh at your terminators storm bolters and nerfed asscannons.

And I laugh like hell at their deathspitters, barbed stranglers and gaunts... Where did the genestealers and the dakka fexes go? Gone so soon? Close combat MCs with cover saves like you've posted seem pretty cool, and a classic 4th edition stealer/dakka fex build beats me. But its long gone around these parts. I'm seeing spinegaunts and stranglers and spitter warriors. Belial and co, tear through gaunts, 18 strength 6 hits per turn still takes down MCs. This matchup is entirely build dependent. The more people that read your CCMC tactica the more I'm in trouble, but the more the nids focus on the green menace with templates, the less real dakka they have.

Yeah everyone likes the blast templates. It's neat, but you need like 40 warriors with templates to really crush everyone. Most players won't buy that many warriors. lol

I agree the more nids worry about orks and try to beat orks with ork-nids, the easier it'll be to beat them.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Tau have range and mobility. Missile pods and plasma fire.

Tau have plasma and thats it. If they took 9+ crisis suits, I'll worry. But aren't we talking about the fact that 9+ crisis suits has no place against orks? I'm gonna DWA with my termies, and I'm gonna drop as many crisis suits as I can on the drop. Are you going to spread your suits out? And risk losing turns trying to get those plasma shots back inot my tiny DWA deployment. Or are you gonna clump up, and get outshot locally? Kroot and firewarriors coming into this equation? I'm seeing lists that spam fire warriors, and I'm seeing lists that focus on mobility. Not both... Both of them have weaknesses, and I've personally seen both lists weaknesses exploited against termies. Not a theory discussion, I've played out the games. Once their plasma is spent, the tau have to hope for enough armor fails to take terminators down to a man. In objective games, termies just do the damage they need to do to the ap2 early, then climb into an objective in cover, turns go by tick tock until the tau player realizes that he can't get close to belial (or shoot him... thanks apothecary) nor can he take all of the three termie units that are squatting objectives down beyond their last man.

You can make some pretty firepower lists out there with tau, but my experience has shown me that they dont have the ork-like spam of rapid fire shots, while maintaining a balanced list, that isn't vulnerable to other types of lists.

Hmmm I run 10 crisis suits, a FW unit (for a markerlight), a couple kroot/hound units, piranhas, two railheads, and 3 sniper teams (also for markerlights).

There's very little to shoot at, and the crisis suits are always MP/Plasma. Add in a couple markerlight hits a turn on a crucial unit, and that unit will evaporate.

I fold to CC, but since I do that anyway I'm entirely focused on shooting while minimizing the return fire I do take.

I rely on torrent of fire and focus fire on units until they are dead or useless. With the new wound allocation rules allowing me to pick off special/heavy/sarges, I'm in better shape now than I was in 4E.

I never lost with that army, fyi. And I usually played 1500 points to 2000, before stjohn was kind and spotted me some crisis suits (so I had 7) and I got some hounds from another guy so I could flush the army out to 1850. I still play 1850 vs 2000.

Everyone locally calls it Codex drone. They hate it. lol

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Did I miss anyone in the torrent of fire list?

Nope, and I've taken some of those matchups back... You've given up on termie armies, i get that... It's not really your playstyle. Understandable. But that doesn't make them not good.

Mostly I don't enjoy playing elite armies that don't feel elite.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Smurfs get lots of mobile multimeltas, lots of meltaguns, and the ability to bring assault marines with meltabombs. I guess you'll see when the new dex comes out.

Cool, looking forward to it. The patchy rumors I've gleaned from the net lead me to believe that the new marines look really weak. It's good to hear that the pieces fit when you see the whole thing.

It has two things going against it:

1) It's Marines in a marine killing world.
2) Jervis wrote it.

I can't say it won't suck as 'Vanilla' marines often do, but there are two armies that are just OTT in there and I'm not enjoying playing against them. lol

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Dark eldar get blaster bikes.

We revisit the auto-loss.

Indeed.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Eldar get TL BL Wave Serpents (kill you at long range, so no "trade" occurs.)

are you taking those? I'm not being facetious.. I really am curious. So spendy. doesn't seem a very Stelek move. But if you or anyone else is taking them... then ok, theres one. (I have not seen anyone seriously take them. I see fire dragons with shurikannons ramming things and tank shocking... but I haven't seen the 45 point bright lance.)

Since LR are making a comeback (or will, I should say) you need a way to kill tanks at range.

You cannot take your Falcons in range of the enemy anymore, they WILL blow you out of the sky with meltaguns.

I like Fire Prisms, but if I'm going to take a Wave Serpent with DA in it...the WS will kill tanks and the DA will kill infantry.

After the Prisms blast them with the ordnance template.

I can use the Prisms to fry anything dangerous, I can deal with Liths, I can knock out LR, and I can deal with mech AND non-mech hordes.

BL aren't cheap because they fill the role of tank hunter, and since people with tanks want your tank hunters dead, they'll focus fire on them. At range, a WS has a good chance of surviving but it can sit in midfield and not get owned by meltaguns. Falcons and Prisms have to stay at long range, else they die. So I'd rather fire my mobile serpents at tanks and force the enemy to kill them, instead of ignoring them because they have shuricannons and don't kill vehicles. In essence, I can make my Wave Serpents valid targets for anti-tank fire and draw some away from the Fire Prisms.

Others haven't learned this lesson yet.

I'm not telling everyone for nothing, I hope. lol

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Necrons have heavy destroyers.

No, necrons HAD heavy destroyers, before my turn started... remember

Scarabs can push you out of range, fyi. That's the only Necron army that's got a chance in hell in 5E right now, scarab spam.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:DH have stormtroopers (or sisters, or IG) that have meltaguns.

In lists where I'm advocating taking land raiders this can be a problem. I use DWA for distance closure against stand and shooters, and against aggressor armies, I let them invest the wasted points on maneuvering and speed, I'll just deploy on the table. They'll have to put those meltas into termies. They have to hit, wound, and I have to fail a save, then i get to eat their lunch.

True, but the weakness you speak of (many KP) is actually a strength against DWA.

You can't kill more than 3-4 units a turn. Often you need to fire again at a single troop because it's still scoring.

That means I can feed you units, enjoy cover saves, and rip you apart unit by unit.

After all, I have 10 more than you do.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Sisters have meltaguns up the ying.

wow, that just conjured one of the more filthy yet totally kinky images into my brain, that'll stay with me this weekend.. haha

sisters have the tools to beat deathwing. Conceded.

Sisters are very nasty crushing death, always have been.

I wish people would cotton onto that.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Chaos can take out LR with oblits, and they can have a stunning amount of meltaguns and flamers if they go that way.

I'd love them to have a stunning amount of flamers. I'm in terminator armor remember? But I won't speed over your point, they can have lots of meltas, and plasma cannons. Not an easy one to face... advantage chaos... revised after FAQ.

Flamers x 3 + Terminators = some dead termies. You can get alot of termies under the template....toss in a few other shots, and life isn't looking so good.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Tyranids, problem with LR? They can't kill them very well at range (but you'll probably be stunned the whole game) but at close quarters? Tyranids own terminators at close range when built for 5E (meaning, none of those crap lists everyone was running around with in 4E and calling uber) so you have the worst of both worlds in your face PDQ.

I love that tactica BTW... I think you've probably tipped everyone in utah off about it, and I think its a really cool build... but people out here are stuck on barbed stranglers... land raider is all kinds of good against the nids I've been seeing lately.

They will learn to stop spamming ranged shots and just go with what Nids are good at, assaulting.

If Demons can't stop that list, nobody can. Not in CC anyway.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:Tau make LR cry, but I assume you know that...since they are the best killer of vehicles in the game.

yeah, I guess if you have the LR against them, you abandon the idea of riding in it and hold the former passengers in reserve, Try to drive it as far as you can to block LOS to an objectve, and scoot a termie unit behind it at game end. I like my 6 termie army better W/o land raiders, and tau is a big reason why.

Well LR have a few weaknesses still, but I think you'll find YOU have the problem when there are LR running around. lol it's not like you can kill them easily yourself, and they can punk terminators like nobody's business.

Shep wrote:

Stelek wrote:So, Orks have a tough time of it, that's what PK nobs and warbosses are for.

Is that before or after the crusader opened up on them, the entire army shot at the shootas, and a belial/banner/claw unit ran out and started chopping off heads?

Warbosses are good at killing land raiders. But tell that to the big meks that are firmly lodged in the 'best hq' catagory.