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Nathonicus, thanks, glad you like the quiz.

Other non-gaming podcasts along the same lines are The Cthulhu Podcast (http://cthulhupodcast.co.uk/), Decoder Ring Theatre (www.decoderringtheatre.com), Dimension X (iTunes), & Wormwood (www.wormwoodshow.com)

I don't play Warmachine or Hordes, so the new contest prizes wouldn't be of much use to me other than to resell on EBay. & I'm much more of an obsessive, "attention to minute detail" kind of guy, than one that can actually be creative. So, this new contest isn't quite my style.

Master-Terraformer wrote:No, no, your majesty, that's how a WAKELIN pronounces Cavarly.

lmao. "cavarly"

But seriously, you guys are the best podcast out there in any genre. The little qwerks are what makes you guys so much fun.

Black Cavalier wrote:Nathonicus, thanks, glad you like the quiz.

Other non-gaming podcasts along the same lines are The Cthulhu Podcast (http://cthulhupodcast.co.uk/), Decoder Ring Theatre (www.decoderringtheatre.com), Dimension X (iTunes), & Wormwood (www.wormwoodshow.com).

Thanks. Anything to pass the time at work helps, and the serial drama is actual pretty fun.

kingcaboose wrote:
But seriously, you guys are the best podcast out there in any genre. The little qwerks are what makes you guys so much fun.

True! Although I appreciate that the game content is so very high. The quirks and side-notes are all thrown in to a very well ordered agenda of gaming topics. Some other podcasts I've been following have lost my interest as they ratio of gaming content to chat has dropped. D6G, on the other hand, remains content-laden.

Well, guys, we're back from GenCon. Not a lot of time now, but suffice it to say we'll be having CHOC-FULL episodes coming up! We've got interviews from the designers of Battlestar Gallactica (great game), the designer of Touch of Evil, the next Flying Frog Productions game (great game), a MAMMOTH interiew with Matt Wilson, and much, much more.

The PP demos of Monsterpocalypse were rife with problems because the rules weren't available to the guys running them until the night before, so it's hard to judge game play when you know the rules better than the guy giving the demo (not his fault, I had a 3 hour plane ride in which to pour over the little rules booklet). But we've got enough (barely) to play test, and we'll be letting you know how it is soon.

Not only that, but the game companies were VERY generous with gifts for you all, and we're going to be running NON-STOP contests offering ALL KINDS of prizes.

So keep listening, yall, cuz you ain't seen nothin' yet!

Happy Gaming!

~Craig

I love the podcast and I was wondering if the group would review 5150 by Two Hour Wargames. I have seen some interesting takes on it over at the miniatures page, but it's always hard to tell fanboy blather from objective evaluations.

Hollywood,

I finally finished listening to your minute this episode and it compelled me to write.

I know that the point of your minute was really to bring up the philosophical differences between playing by the 'letter' vs. the 'spirit' of the rules, but I think you chose a very poor example since the rule you referenced does not exist as you say it does, therefore the 'as written' concept is not valid.

What concerns me is that there are some people who don't read the rules themselves and just rely on others to teach them the game and these type of people may listen to the podcast and think because they heard someone else (you) mention it, that is how the rules actually work.


So to clarify: The rules in 5th edition 40K do not allow one player to declare that they don't think their opponent's unit is in cover and thereby force him to take his cover save at -1.

What the rules actually say is:

"In situations where it's not obvious whether a unit is in cover or not, the normal solution is to strictly apply the majority rule above, and count how many models are in cover from the point of view of each of the firing models in range. As this process might prove to be rather time-consuming, for a faster (albeit less precise) solution, the players may agree to treat these units as in cover, but with a cover save of one less than normal (for example a 5+ save if partially in cover behind a building or another unit, which normally would offer a 4+ save)."


As you can see, both players must agree in order to use the '-1' cover save rule. If both players do not agree, then the slower method of checking LOS from each firing model is used to determine if at least half of the target enemy models are 'in cover' from the majority of the firers.

So the only thing one player can do is force the game to move at a slower pace by figuring out precisely whether the unit is in cover or not. Only if both players agree do they apply the '-1' rule and move on with the game.


Please, please, please, please make an 'on-air' correction in an upcoming episode. I would really hate to hear about anyone trying to use this 'tactic' because they heard about it from the D6G when it is not an actual rule.



Besides that, great episode as always!!!

Thanks, Yak. Great point. We'll be sure to mention that prominently in the next episode.

~Craig

So I finally finished listening to the marathon episode 13. Even before I started listening, I was tempted to to write and express a little frustration with 3 hours of show. File size is large, time is long, etc.

After listening, I am amazed at the quality and depth of content included. You all continue to impress me with your material, and you are IMHO the best gaming podcast out there. The depth of your reviews and the breadth of material is really top notch. Nicely done!

Perhaps you might consider breaking these longer casts into parts? A-la episodes 1 and 4 perhaps?

One final comment as well. We the listeners understand that Craig does not like PP and their games. We get it. Please, stop kicking the horse, it is long since dead.

Well, firstly, thanks, Munchezuma, for the kind words! We try to get as in-depth as we can, so that you know where our final review is coming from. That way, our rating alone will not be the deciding factor. If we rate something low, but tell you why and you LIKE the elements that we didn’t, you’ll know, be able to make a better-informed decision, and get more for your hobby dollar and time.

Not sure about the last comment though. Am I making too much of it? Are they? Somewhere along the line, I think you may have also gotten the wrong impression. I DON’T hate PP, that’s the point. I LOVE the game system behind WM/H, and I think, as a company, PP is one of the best gaming companies out there, for reasons I’ve given time and time again.

I just don’t like the way the power progression in their main game systems inordinately rewards the obsessed to the complete destruction of the dilettante. In my opinion, it’s a system that you MUST be obsessed with to do well, because every few months the entire game system changes.

I don’t hate it at all.

Sorry if you feel that’s a horse that’s been beaten till the dust stops rising, but I’d have to say it deserved one more good swat if you came away thinking I hate all things PP.

And after spending an hour and a half with Matt Wilson at GenCon (watch for the interview in an upcoming episode), I appreciate the company, and the man behind the company, even more.

Anyway, sorry for the frustration. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for listening, and Happy Gaming!

~Craig

Actually, hearing Craig's rants against power players, and his staunch (and reasoned) defense of GW is one of the main draws of the show for me.

I'm also fond of hearing Russ's grudging admissions that 5th edition is very fun and playable, but that's just me.

Master-Terraformer wrote:Not sure about the last comment though. Am I making too much of it? Are they? Somewhere along the line, I think you may have also gotten the wrong impression. I DON’T hate PP, that’s the point. I LOVE the game system behind WM/H, and I think, as a company, PP is one of the best gaming companies out there, for reasons I’ve given time and time again.

I just don’t like the way the power progression in their main game systems inordinately rewards the obsessed to the complete destruction of the dilettante. In my opinion, it’s a system that you MUST be obsessed with to do well, because every few months the entire game system changes.

I don’t hate it at all.

Sorry if you feel that’s a horse that’s been beaten till the dust stops rising, but I’d have to say it deserved one more good swat if you came away thinking I hate all things PP.

And after spending an hour and a half with Matt Wilson at GenCon (watch for the interview in an upcoming episode), I appreciate the company, and the man behind the company, even more.

Anyway, sorry for the frustration. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for listening, and Happy Gaming!

~Craig

It very well may be a mistaken impression on my part, and I'll try to listen a little more open-minded in the future.

To further clarify my impression, it almost seems as if there is a different "tone" to the discussions between the three of you when PP comes up. The most recent episode seemed to capture it perfectly - the overall Hordes review progressed fine, but it seemed like things got a little "heated" during the final assigning of scores, something that did not happen during the Battlelore review for example.

Again, perhaps it is me, and I'll try to be more receptive in the future. Valhallan take a different perspective than mine, so I may well be the odd man out. Not the first time for that!

I even regret mentioning it, because I do not want it to take away from my praise of your show. I really cannot speak highly enough about you. I've been enthusiastically recommending your show and enjoy it from start to finish. Especially Rapid Fire. Please keep up the great work and know that it is enjoyed and appreciated.

Munch

Thanks Yak, it's amazing how many people I've heard get that rule wrong (both on The D6G and on This Week in Wargaming from Stelek). I hope that the clarification starts spreading so that this mis-information goes away.

The episode was great, as usual. I sold all my Warmachine stuff a while ago for the same reasons that Craig seems to not like the game. Too many gotchas and over-powered units and significant power-creep. I am tempted into Hordes for the reason that it seems to be lighter on that than WM and the models are a lot, lot better. I may have to pick up a small force so I can play a few Hordes games... Or I can just start AT-43...

Also, my fiance loves the When Wives Attack so keep them coming.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Munchezuma, no offense taken! I just sometimes feel like, because Russ and Raef are a bit more pigeon-holed than I am, that the pressure is there for me to be as well, and I don't think that's the case.

Either way, your opinions are totally valid, and welcomed in the spirit in which they were intended.

Thanks for spreading the word. We could use more of that, too, so get out there, ya'll!

In an interesting side-note for this thread, we at the D6G got our first press release from Fantasy Flight today (the joys of networking) only slightly tainted by the fact that they made the announcment on their website as well:

Days of Wonder has sold all of the rights, properties, and merchandise pertaining to the BattleLore title to Fantasy Flight for future production and expansion, including a deal with the original designer, Mr. Borg (resistance is futile), to work with FFG in these expansions.

Great news, for those of us at GenCon that expressed concern for the rather anemic showing of DOW this year.

Anyway, thank you all for your kind words. Despite Russ' vacation Raef and I are trying to put together a little mini-show for this week, and I promise there will be no PP ambivalence what so ever.

Aw man I was working the PP booth & kept an eye peeled for you guys to no avail!

So I've been giving THM some more thought and although the example was poor, the question still remains.

Just FYI, a better example is over-guessing in Warhammer Fantasy. Your opponent has a cannon and declares that he is going to fire at your Wood Elf Archers in the forest. However, you have a treeman some ways behind the forest and out of LOS of the cannon and so your opponent deliberately "over-guesses" to cause the cannonball to sail over the Archers and hit the Treeman out of line of sight. I've had this debate with Mauleed. I think it 's akin to cheating. You declared a target falsely. But the rules allow it as you pick a target, declare a range, measure range, etc. These players say, "If you line yourself up that way, that was a mistake and I'm going to punish it.", even if I believe that they are going against the Spirit of the rules.

So what would I do? Would I return the favor and use loopholes or other stretches back at him? Well, doing so would basically make me a hypocrite.

What I can do is not be as forgiving of all the little mistakes we all make during a Warhammer game. "Oh, you forgot to declare a charge with that unit? Sorry, you are now moving chargers so you aren't allowed to do that." "Can you re-measure that wheel? It looks to me like you were off by 1/4"." Normally, I'm pretty laid back. You forgot to declare a charge, no problem, we all do. Archers range too close to call, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You start being a WAAC player to me, those courtesies go away.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:
What I can do is not be as forgiving of all the little mistakes we all make during a Warhammer game.

Sounds fair enough. Cutthroat Warhammer...

The problem with so-called "spirit of the rules" debates is that no two people agree with what the spirit was.

And when two players /think/ they do know the spirit, more often than not, the designers disagree anyway & now you're just using pointless house rules.

If it's legal, it's legal. The overguessing example is a good one because it's a nice instance of where the "spirit" is not the spirit, or the rules. It's just a made-up house rule with no basis in anything besides player X being mad that he positioned poorly. It's this "hoho good chap, let's be sporting, wot" kind of crap that needs to die already.

The rules are rules. They have no spirit. They tell you what you can or can't do. It's like the scoring force comp garbage some games still try to cling to. If I can LEGALLY take this & that unit in this or that number, it's legal, it's following the rules as designed, & it's FAIR & sporting.

Too many people expect others to play using a handicap & to take it easy on them & not make armies that might not be easy to beat the first try, or to not kill their valuable units.

Overguessing is lying. You say you are targeting one unit and really you are targeting the unit that otherwise you would be prevented from shooting at due to THE RULES. And, as I said, I wouldn't prevent you from doing so, but I will not be the same nice, easy-going player that I normally am in a Warhammer game.

Also, saying that something is fair because it is in the rules assumes the rules are perfectly fair and balanced to begin with. Since the rules are never perfectly fair and balanced (in any gaming system), that argument is a stretch.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Hardly. Rules are rules & are there for a reason. What you are talking about, really, is that you think /you/ can decide what is fair & should be allowed case-by-case, /regardless/ of the rules.

No "lying" was done. Did he TARGET a unit he's not allowed to? Then he followed the rules, & it's a lie to pretend otherwise. If your level of sportsmanship or enjoyment changes based on if they follow the rules in the books vs. your totally arbitrary & broken backseat-driver version that exists from moment to moment in your head (and nowhere else)...you are the one with the problem.

If you think your version of what's fair is somehow better than what the rules allow, you need to check that ego at the door & rethink the whole idea of having rulebooks. If the rules allow it, it's a legal army & you're a liar & a cheater if you change your gameplay or sportsmanship because you decided it's too competitive for you to handle or that tactics that are legal, allowed, & let's face it, forseen long before it ever got to your eyes...sad.

Wow, touched a nerve have we? So you are saying that all rulebooks are inherently fair and balanced? The rules state that you can't declare a charge if you know the target is outside your charge range, how is this scenario really that different?

By the way, I never said anything about taking an army that is too competitive or tactics that are too good. What I brought up is a clear loophole in the rules as it lets you target a unit that otherwise you could not. Also, I said I would allow the player to do so, but I do believe that the player is knowingly lying about his "original target" and exploiting that loophole. To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Call it sad, call it Moral High ground, or whatever. I'm a nice guy but if you’re an A-hole, I'm real good at being an A-hole too.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

A Bonus Gen Con preview episode of D6G has been posted.

Craig and Raef give some initial feedback on their Gen Con adventures.

web site: www.TheD6Generation.com

ninjatango wrote: If you think your version of what's fair is somehow better than what the rules allow, you need to check that ego at the door & rethink the whole idea of having rulebooks. If the rules allow it, it's a legal army & you're a liar & a cheater if you change your gameplay or sportsmanship because you decided it's too competitive for you to handle or that tactics that are legal, allowed, & let's face it, forseen long before it ever got to your eyes...sad.

If you think the rules developers "forsee" all the possible tactics and combos, you're deluded. If they did, we wouldn't need FAQs. The devs aren't perfect, and as a result, the rules aren't perfect. Some measure of common sense and familiarity with the gaming "language" is required to read beyond RAW and see what the devs were actually trying to say and how they think the game should be played. And seasoned players have gotten very good at it. Just look at yakface's FAQs which were actually adopted by GW.

RussWakelin wrote:A Bonus Gen Con preview episode of D6G has been posted.

Craig and Raef give some initial feedback on their Gen Con adventures.

web site: www.TheD6Generation.com

See, now I have to win the lottery so I can buy that Sultan Game Table. If I hadn't listened to the pod cast, I could be blissfully ignorant of the entire thing! Damn you Craig and Hollywood!

Valhallan42nd wrote:

RussWakelin wrote:A Bonus Gen Con preview episode of D6G has been posted.

Craig and Raef give some initial feedback on their Gen Con adventures.

web site: www.TheD6Generation.com

See, now I have to win the lottery so I can buy that Sultan Game Table. If I hadn't listened to the pod cast, I could be blissfully ignorant of the entire thing! Damn you Craig and Hollywood!

For a link to "The Sultan"

http://www.geekchichq.com/The_Sultan_.html

My fav pick is the one with food in it. I like how a person who is going to drop nearly $10k on a gaming table still enjoys a good bowl of Mac & Cheese with his gaming.

No, friend, those are cheetos, AKA, Iron Rations.

As for Mac and Cheese, that stuff has gone upscale. The wife reports that it is to die for.

Is the Sultan going to be one of the D6G prizes Craig mentioned on the podcast?

I wish!

Actually, guys, if you listen carefully to the beginning of that interview, you'll hear the owner's reaction to Hollywood asking that exact question.

Apparently, we weren't the first

I luuuuuuuuuuuuuurv that gaming table and want to have its babies!

As for the whole TLOS issue.... man there are some messed up people out there! My gaming buddies are my friends first and opponents second! I am NOT going to fall out with my friend over a technicality of a game. Sure we all no That Guy and also the ultra-technical nature of tournament play. But guys... its a game with plastic dollies and dice... If you lose it, it doesn't mean a thing. NO ONE is impressed with people who would rather win games than make friends.

I appreciate that this attitude isn't shared by everyone, and it goes a long way to explaining why I have only been to one gaming tournament in my entire life and will never go to anouther... but seriously. All you do if you seriously argue over a rule (as opposed to the bood natured female-dogging and joshing that happens between friends) is demonstrate to the entire world what a jerk you are....

On the other hand, I do like rules clarity. Even for beer-and-pretzel gaming. I want to know in any given situation as much as possible what we are supposed to do - to a) save time over trying to decide fairly in an ad hoc way, and b) so as not to risk anyone feeling someone cheated somewhere. Sure "d6 it" works to an extent, but I like to try to win fairly rather than win or lose a point on a simple toss of a coin because a rule was unclear.

To that extent I think 5th edition is a monumental step forwards for 40k (which I couldn't bring myself to play in 4th ed). There are still some ambiguities in the rules but as Yakface points out, TLOS isn't really among them. I have played LotR and LotOW for years with TLOS rules, and never, ever had a single problem. Sure it may slow things up in a tournament, but frankly, I couldn't give a damn about tournaments. Personally I think tournament play is a curse on gaming, and that it should be left to sort out its own problems...

That table looks rather impractical to me. You can't check TLOS with that raised lip, and I bet you can't reach the middle while sitting down, so no good for roleplaying.