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looks to me like they ment know harm by it but i could see why some people in china or asia for that matter would be offended by it but if your not asian you shouldnt be offended by it since it has nothing to do with you.

Orlanth, that was a marvellous post. I very much agree with you - most people, countries or media pretend to be shocked at this kind of things, but for the most part, calling a black man the N word (or making any connotations in which skin colour is central) isn't meant as any more of an insult as calling a white man "mofo".

I think this illustrates the news perfectly, from a previously posted link -
"The Spanish reaction to the subsequent controversy – criticism of the fans’ behaviour, mixed with confusion that their actions were taken so seriously – reflected a culture where racist insults are considered to be on a par with jibes about an athlete’s weight, personality and hair colour. "

Now all of a sudden Spain is hailed as a racists' haven, and I'm surprised no-one pulled Cortez and his massacres to show how their xenophobic tendencies run back to xxx years ago.

Also, I tend to see a lot of americans (and some british) shocked at this. I never could understand how professional football players can threaten to leave the field because the crowd is singing "racist chants" or making ape-like noises. It's a low strike, but being on that same receiving edge has shown me that most people say that to act as a provocation and not necessarily outright racism.

I rate this reaction with the same outlook as the reaction the talibans had when dutch cartoonists printed their work. Mostly it stems from lack of knowledge or prejudice against the said offenders.

Most people have no idea of the latin political, historical and moral background if you think that doing that is seen as offensive. We actually joke about racism as we are part of a culturally diverse and generally friendly that welcomes all people, of different colour, religion, birth, etc.

Interestingly, there was a "scandal" going on about a chinese reporter making fun of the portuguese (he altered a photograph) and that didn't make the news.

Or, perhaps, people should read articles like this - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/719189.stm - in which the prejudice the brazilians show is matched by the contempt we hold from them, we badmouth each other but it's really just that. It's not like there's any actual racial hatred deep in the hearts of everyone here and there, it's just that they chose to highlight the most extreme points of view because that's what moves the emotional gauge and consequently "sells".

Using the proverbial expression, any "news" I've read on Yahoo or BBC.co.uk, I take them with a grain of salt because half a page worth of words hardly convey a true view on any subject even if you hold the world's record for short understandable resumes.

Dropping the N bomb simply isn't the same, it's about the relationship to power and history. I fully support anyone who walks off the pitch due to racist chants, and was appalled when black and mixed race players of the England football team were subjected to that sort of abuse when playing in Spain, it was disgusting. To say it's just a joke is bollocks, nothing short. If the person on the recieving end can't laugh at it it's not funny. Racism falls squarely into that category.

And if you actually read that article you posted from the beeb, that's the point they're making, there's light hearted ribbing going on, but no real hatred, and both sides have a strong working relationship. It seems to me in no way incendary or histerical.

Deathmachine wrote:looks to me like they ment know harm by it but i could see why some people in china or asia for that matter would be offended by it but if your not asian you shouldnt be offended by it since it has nothing to do with you.

I'm offended by their stupidity actually. Did USA uberpwon these losers yet?

Greebynog wrote:Dropping the N bomb simply isn't the same, it's about the relationship to power and history. I fully support anyone who walks off the pitch due to racist chants, and was appalled when black and mixed race players of the England football team were subjected to that sort of abuse when playing in Spain, it was disgusting. To say it's just a joke is bollocks, nothing short. If the person on the recieving end can't laugh at it it's not funny. Racism falls squarely into that category.

And if you actually read that article you posted from the beeb, that's the point they're making, there's light hearted ribbing going on, but no real hatred, and both sides have a strong working relationship. It seems to me in no way incendary or histerical.

On the first part, I disagree. All players face one type of pressure or another, Mário Jardel (a brazilian player) had at one time a problem because his wife divorced him and he was shown big cards, in game, saying that they had intercourse with his wife etc. This in my opinion is worst as it's a very personal attack. He didn't once threaten to leave the pitch. That's something that happens to all players and all that a professional player should do was concentrate on his job. These aren't meant as racist or personal attacks, just a way of getting on the player's nerves - which each and every fan club does in a football match. Did they also boo or insult their own black or mixed race players?

About the article, here's what you might've missed (or any reader that's not familiar with either people);

"Brazilians are not hostile to their former colonial masters but they are often patronising. Anthropologist Antonio Juaranchez had an explanation. "

Who stated this? They are? I've never, ever been patronised by a brazilian. I wonder how they came upon this fact.

"Most Brazilians have some Portuguese blood, dating back to the colonial period. But even those with more recent links share the prejudice."

No, they don't. They are basing this on two malcontents (more on this later) ? Most brazilians are descended from portuguese, which are still very present in their society - and ours. The prejudice is not part of the mentality of most of the population. By the way they're talking, my uncle and his family that live there and all my friends that went there would have been stoned to death.

"The Portuguese economy is growing fast and Portuguese companies are bringing their money to Brazil. "

Again, where did they get this? They show a single company, PT Telecom, which was until some years ago a monopolistic entity owned by the state and still generated only marginal profits or loss. This is no sign that our economy is growing fast.

BTW, the Grito do Ipiranga (Brazil's independence) 200 years ago. North America wasn't that much older, was an authentic melting pot, and see how it's people turned out. If you can just say it's the portuguese's fault, why not look at Macau.

About the malcontents, look for Spike Lee's overview of the american culture or for his most recent review of Flags of Our Fathers, in which Clint Eastwood is nearly accused of being racist. It's an example of how people can't let go and look to the future, and start admitting their actions have consequences, not hold someone responsible because of what happened 50 years ago.

You can't seriously be defending racism towards someone just because they had the audacity to play sports, can you? Why do they deserve that? Saying it's just another way of getting at people is a cop-out and can only serve to further backwards idiotic thought.

I still think you missed the tone of the article, I don't think it's implying there's lynchings of Portugese people, just that there's a banter going on based on historical differences, just like English people tell Irish jokes and vice versa (although that situation is obviously more volatile), but I don't think that's the important point so I concede it to you.

Any defence of racism however, no, I'm not having that. The original picture is just childish idiocy, and not overtly harmful, but the argument that we should accept racism in sports? All I can say is I'm glad I live somewhere where it's not tolerated.

You do realize if an opposing team or group startign chanting the N word in the US there would be a riot? Thats a seriouly quick way to get alternative ventilation holes in your head, and rightly so.

Sorry, don't get me wrong, I just can't see what the spanish did as outright racist, rather like "try guessing where we are" or anything like that.

I'm not defending any kind of racist, or stupid preconceptions based on any physical or mental difference, but I consider a racist to be someone who intentionally attacks, humiliates or in any way degrades another group, and continuously shows contempt towards said group, not just in a match. They are doing it out of sincere stupidity, and frankly I won't waste a word talking about this kind of trash.

Maybe because of our cultural differences we take these matters a lot more lightly than, say, americans seem to do.
Not that we do not care or can answer in kind, but what some people might say is racism I for one see as a provocation of a distinct player in order to affect his gaming and overall team performance (like Thierry), they aren't intentionally hunting him and would not do this if he played for their team, or see insulting behaviour (what the spanish team did) in what I see was a harmless play on the asian racial traits.

Don't get me wrong, I just can't see what the fuss is about. And I don't even like the spanish (or the french, for that matter).

BTW, I did see the article as light, I wasn't offended by any of it (except the narrow-mindedness of certain people, but that's hardly the reporter's fault) but a bit ticked at some inaccuracies that are inexcusable, especially in someone who is writing news for an internet site (who simply don't have any obstacle in researching through google, wikis etc is forbidden).

@jfrazell : The two words we have here are roughly accepted, it generally depends on context and tone.
I'm saying that any player can be provoked, it's almost part of certain games, and yes, some of the jokes can be really cheap but I hardly think football fans organizations (for instance) are a front for xenophobic groups, it's more to do with getting to the player (which is something that a professionally paid player ought to be able to cope with). It's not nice but happens to everyone, white, black, yellow or whatever. It's just that what's more vulgar tends to stand out more :p

The second bit almost got sigged

Destrado wrote:
Maybe because of our cultural differences we take these matters a lot more lightly than, say, americans seem to do.

I would suggest that perhaps it might be more to ethnic diversity than cultural differences perhaps.

I'll 'fess up here I don't have much/any knowledge of the ethnic breakdown of Portugal, but I believe from what I've read here and there it's far less mixed than the UK or America.

In my experience-- and I would say in History-- it's much more common to treat casual racism or racial "humour" as less serious if there is less diversity in the population.

People over here from my grandparents generation occasionally flabbergast me with their attitudes and things they say, it's not they dislike other peoples as such, more they were raised with a (subconscious ?) belief that there are/were in some way better or that this immigrants were only harmful to the nation in some way.

Where as that might have been "acceptable" once, as times change so to do views, laws and humour.

Word reds8n.

I think the Spanish team said, "We're getting paid for this
photo shoot? Cool, what do you want us to do?"

reds8n wrote:

Destrado wrote:
Maybe because of our cultural differences we take these matters a lot more lightly than, say, americans seem to do.

I would suggest that perhaps it might be more indoctrination than cultural differences perhaps.

Fixed.

Depends on who's indoctrination you're talking about, because if you're referring to us you have absolutely no idea of how we are

And Red, I think we've seen our share of different people since 1139

I loved the picture. I found it quite funny. PC is lame!

Yeah, screw PC, I mean, treating people fairly, stuff that.

I think Stewart Lee nails it here: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE

Dice Monkey wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Destrado wrote:
Maybe because of our cultural differences we take these matters a lot more lightly than, say, americans seem to do.

I would suggest that perhaps it might be more indoctrination than cultural differences perhaps.

Fix.

er... if you so say. I note that the only arguments being put forth are those saying why racism is wrong whilst those arguing against being " Pc" or, lets be blunt, showing a decent level of consideration and politeness to another human being don't actually appear to have any arguments.

I don't see how PC is any more or les lame than pretty much any otehr reasonable view of the world. Sure sometimes it can be taken too far by over zealous individuals or abused by those in power for their own benefit, but so can every idea or instituition.

And it's worth having just for the fury it provokes in small minded white boys afraid of change.

reds8n wrote:
er... if you so say. I note that the only arguments being put forth are those saying why racism is wrong whilst those arguing against being " Pc" or, lets be blunt, showing a decent level of consideration and politeness to another human being don't actually appear to have any arguments.

I don't see how PC is any more or les lame than pretty much any otehr reasonable view of the world. Sure sometimes it can be taken too far by over zealous individuals or abused by those in power for their own benefit, but so can every idea or instituition.

And it's worth having just for the fury it provokes in small minded white boys afraid of change.

But what they did is not racism, it may be bigoted and impolite but it is not racist. People like you do not even know the meaning of the word yet your going to sit there and insult anyone who does or does not share your indoctrinated viewpoint. That last sentence just destroyed any credibility you had, you are the one who is frightened and follows the mantra that anyone who disagrees or does not hold an opinion is afraid and evil. You may as well start screaming four legs good, two legs bad chanting.

Greebynog wrote:Yeah, screw PC, I mean, treating people fairly, stuff that.

I think Stewart Lee nails it here: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE

I'm all in favour of treating people fairly and respectfully as much as possible, I'm also capable of misjudging someone, stereotyping, and I can admit it and apologize if need be. But don't tell me this is some world-wide drama and the spanish basketball team's intention was one of insulting their hosts, they were just posing for a picture. A racist attitude is one where a chinese is holding a french banner saying "Joanna D'Arc = whore, France = nazis" because the french didn't agree with the occupation of Tibet.

Now, admittedly, some stereotypes are presently available for jokes (blacks, whites, reds, asians, americans, europeans, etc) but making jokes about it doesn't make me a racist does it?

PC is all nice and warm but extremely hypocrite because people have prejudice anyway, they're just trying to look like they don't. I've already been accused of anti-semitism and xenophobic views, which is discriminating in itself as people aren't even open to different views or opinions on these kind of matters. They just get frustrated that they can't make a point and start lashing out in angst, because for some people, thinking something over is so much harder and tiresome than whining (just for the record, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in this thread, just something that I've often witnessed).

Mate, come on now, this is silly. You think it's fine to make jokes based on racial stereotypes 'cause you're only having a laugh? You have no idea what it feels like to be on the recieving end of that. None. Also, attacking French people isn't attacking a race, so therefore is not racist, in the same way English isn't a race or Nigerian isn't.

Please read my earlier comments about this photo. I think these people are idiots, not necessarily racists, and never accused them of such. This debate was extrapolated to larger issues a while back, and that's what I was commenting on.

As for your smart little line about hypocracy, please. That's crap and you know it. Even if people do harbour those prejudices, why shouldn't they try to curtail them? Are you honestly suggesting it's wrong to try and afford people basic levels of politeness, and that even trying is wrong?

Saying you're discriminated for harbouring views on race that are 'different' is pathetic, and really undermines any intelligent point you may have been struggling to make, it's mindless and moronic, and you clearly have absolutley no understanding of what real discrimination is. Of course people will attack you for abhorent, backwards viewpoints, you chose them. You didn't choose your race.

If these basketball players get slapped for their sub-play-school humour, or someone in some organisation somewhere gets in trouble for saying something a bit iffy, or you can't have your little jokes about the funny black man in order that the society we live in treats all people with respect and decency, and removes open, blatant, nauseating bigotry then good.

Political correctness was and is a great force for good, I'm sorry if it inconveniences anyone, but suck it up. Stewart Lee's right, the people who complain about 'PC gone mad' are exactly the same sort of knuckle-dragging, mono-syllabic walking turds who say 'You know who's the most under-represented people in this country? Middle class white men.' Sod them, and sod anyone who agrees with them.

Sorry, Destrado, most of that wasn't aimed at you, some of it clearly was, but a lot was just something I felt needed saying. It's an issue that angers me like little else.

Dice Monkey wrote:But what they did is not racism, it may be bigoted and impolite but it is not racist. .

Yes it is racist, they're mocking other people in a manner based on a stereotypical and outdated image of people from that racial grouping.

Me being insulting ? ! WTF ! Your the one claiming that anyone who finds this behaviour distasteful is wrong and only saying that as I have been brainwashed by.. uuhh...?? .. leftists ? Egalitarians ? They who shall not be named !

I'm not afraid of racists, I laugh at them as I find them somewhat pitiable. You're the one chanting the same tired cliches over and over again, that anyone who holds these views is indoctrinated in some way, without , as usual, bringing any argument to back up the claim.

But if it makes you feel better to keep going there then good luck to you.

Closing this thread now, as its starting to get personal.