Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Stelek wrote:Neophytes are a partial fail as their primary purpose (to take wounds off the Marines) is often as not, a bad thing to do now.

HotSoup wrote:Why? Back up please.

They only have a 4+ save. If you are in cover with Black Templar Crusader squads, you are doing something wrong (usually).

So when someone wails on you with lots of shots, as happens now in 5th edition, you end up losing those neophytes and your crusader squad only gets one free pass at taking that damage.

Since you seem able to deliver 14 marines + an IC into combat every single game against such excellent opposition, I can see why you'd think they are "good".

Stelek wrote:Why I'd want to spend points on a Chaplain and 7 marines/7 neophytes w/melta and pfist...

When I can spend 41 more points and get 8 terminators with furious charge is really beyond me.

HotSoup wrote:Maybe because people like scoring units?

Stick them in drop pods or crusaders and you'll still have scoring units.

Stelek wrote:It's not like you HAVE to buy anything but a Emperor's Champion anymore, and he can give everyone re-rolls (except those Neophytes, hmmm maybe don't run them).

HotSoup wrote:Maybe play them before commenting on it? They help gakloads. Make you more survivable, ect. You could go 10 man squads, but what could they do? Get shot to pieces? Charged to pieces? Since my Chap+14 man squad have beaten large terminator squads, I don't see you're love of those 40 point monsters.

Yeah, all the black templar armies (the one you run, you suggest, and everyone else runs) get annihilated by all of the armies I possess. GT's, RTT's, and friendly games. Well built Black Templar lists don't depend on the troops (because they actually aren't any good).

I'm sure you can beat terminator squads when you charge.

Can you beat terminator squads that charge you? No.

Can you beat marked Chaos terminator squads? No.

So you can beat asscannon squads with power fists.

Grats! Pretty meaningless hyperbole.

Stelek wrote:Killing 15 marines is I think easier than killing 8 terminators.

HotSoup wrote:You, with your infinite experience with using Templar. /sarcasm Your point is worth playtesting however. I'll get on that. Except this is for 1000p, I think even you can see the idiocy of taking 8 terms in 1000p non Deathwing lists.

I can't read the OP's text, he chose red so I'm actually only replying to replies.

I sure can see the idiocy of taking terminators in a thousand points. No one can kill 'em, they can't kill the lrc they come in, yeah...it's idiocy allright.

Running big beater squads or hordes is what the smaller game is all about.

I see you recommend the horde approach and take great umbrage at others suggesting anything else for "your" Black Templars.

Maybe you can be less hostile when you reply.

If you think running Black Templars the way you suggest running them requires any experience playing them, I hate to tell you that it doesn't. Not by a long shot.

HotSoup, you forget that BT are fearless in Assault. This falling back nonsense you speak of simply doesn't happen. They either die fighting or kill the unit they charged. No exceptions.

Also, given that the OP is looking for a baseline list with which he can create a larger army, I would say that a Marshal is an excellent choice. Over time, his two units will become four or six or eight or more, and soon he'll need Rites of Battle to hold everything together. Better that he get it sooner rather than later.

* * * * *

Stelek, while I disagree with you on the point that Crusader Squads "aren't any good," I do agree with your assessment that they need support units to deliver. Having a footslogging BT horde army is like attacking someone with a bear that has no teeth or claws and whose legs have atrophied. They need mobility in the form of transports (being able to field stupid amounts of LRCs being the most prominent thought at the moment) and teeth and claws in the form of Terminators (the rest of the elites choices they have don't compare), Fast Attack and Heavy Support Choices.

CK

A friend of mine at my FLGS runs a weird mix of Black Templar.

Dreads, LR, assault squads, foot squads, land speeders, chaplain, vindicator, whirlwinds, terminators...

It's basically a all-out mech list that will make you gnash your teeth because you can't just blow the living out of a vehicle and move on to the next.

Even the whirlwinds require luck (not good) to take out, if you can see them.

I never beat that army in 4th edition with my Emperor's Children. Now that every army but a very very few, feels like that army did...flailing uselessly away at enemy tanks with no real chance of taking them down?

Yeah, it's even less enjoyable.

My year of 5th edition experience + his inability to play much of anything has left me with a huge edge...but that army list he runs is just a pita to deal with.

Then add in you can't shoot OR assault his troops away without serious risk, and yeah...don't like it one bit.

I'm gonna say right now that I'm starting to have trouble understanding what you are saying... Lol...

Does anyone know of anything that will make Termies faster than they are?

Stelek wrote:A friend of mine at my FLGS runs a weird mix of Black Templar.

Dreads, LR, assault squads, foot squads, land speeders, chaplain, vindicator, WHIRLWINDS, terminators...

Ehh?

Obscurum wrote:Does anyone know of anything that will make Termies faster than they are?

A Reclusiarch with 3 Cenobyte Servitors, Bolt Pistol, and Frag Grenades is a cheap (127pts) way to make a squad move like Jump Infantry, essentially. You take a single casualty after the Reclusiarch has joined the unit, and you get to move D6+3" (Rerollable with Crusader Seals to boot) in any direction.

I can say from experience that this is absolutely nasty. I had Grimaldus Zeal forward with an attached Terminator Squad a full 9" in my opponent's first turn, which in return allowed me to move 6", assault about 5", utterly crush his squad in CC with 8 LCPs packing Litanies of Hate and Accept Any Challenge (talk about a pita in CC), and then proceed to consolidate a cool 6" into the nearest unit.

Obviously, this was 4th Edition, so that last bit can't happen any more, but the fact remains that I was afforded a full 25" move in my first turn of the game.

That, or you can just use Land Raider Crusaders...

CK

Stelek wrote:A friend of mine at my FLGS runs a weird mix of Black Templar.

Dreads, LR, assault squads, foot squads, land speeders, chaplain, vindicator, whirlwinds, terminators...

He also plays an illegal list, if this is really templar.

It's basically a all-out mech list that will make you gnash your teeth because you can't just blow the living out of a vehicle and move on to the next.

Even the whirlwinds require luck (not good) to take out, if you can see them.

Again, illegal lists. You sure BT? You Sure whirlwinds?

I never beat that army in 4th edition with my Emperor's Children. Now that every army but a very very few, feels like that army did...flailing uselessly away at enemy tanks with no real chance of taking them down?

Yeah, it's even less enjoyable.

My year of 5th edition experience + his inability to play much of anything has left me with a huge edge...but that army list he runs is just a pita to deal with.

... Year of 5th? It came out... 3 months ago, right?

Then add in you can't shoot OR assault his troops away without serious risk, and yeah...don't like it one bit.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:HotSoup, you forget that BT are fearless in Assault. This falling back nonsense you speak of simply doesn't happen. They either die fighting or kill the unit they charged. No exceptions.

You forget that we also take moral tests EVERY TIME we get shot at. Even with LD10, it will happen when you run backwards and ruin your plans. Sorry for the confusion on this, I never really specified shooting.

Also, given that the OP is looking for a baseline list with which he can create a larger army, I would say that a Marshal is an excellent choice. Over time, his two units will become four or six or eight or more, and soon he'll need Rites of Battle to hold everything together. Better that he get it sooner rather than later.

It's a $15 model, so the here and now is more important. It's not like GW is upping the price on those, yet.

* * * * *

Stelek, while I disagree with you on the point that Crusader Squads "aren't any good," I do agree with your assessment that they need support units to deliver. Having a footslogging BT horde army is like attacking someone with a bear that has no teeth or claws and whose legs have atrophied. They need mobility in the form of transports (being able to field stupid amounts of LRCs being the most prominent thought at the moment) and teeth and claws in the form of Terminators (the rest of the elites choices they have don't compare), Fast Attack and Heavy Support Choices.

Yea. I need to get around to playtesting terminators. My fear is that the terminators+LRC I am putting them in cost so many points it's insane to consider actually fielding all I need. I could run Rhino/Razorback crusader squads to meet the minimum troop requirement, but even then... I'll see.

CK

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:

Obscurum wrote:Does anyone know of anything that will make Termies faster than they are?

A Reclusiarch with 3 Cenobyte Servitors, Bolt Pistol, and Frag Grenades is a cheap (127pts) way to make a squad move like Jump Infantry, essentially. You take a single casualty after the Reclusiarch has joined the unit, and you get to move D6+3" (Rerollable with Crusader Seals to boot) in any direction.


It's any visible enemy unit, not any direction.

I can say from experience that this is absolutely nasty. I had Grimaldus Zeal forward with an attached Terminator Squad a full 9" in my opponent's first turn, which in return allowed me to move 6", assault about 5", utterly crush his squad in CC with 8 LCPs packing Litanies of Hate and Accept Any Challenge (talk about a pita in CC), and then proceed to consolidate a cool 6" into the nearest unit.

Obviously, this was 4th Edition, so that last bit can't happen any more, but the fact remains that I was afforded a full 25" move in my first turn of the game.

Indeed, tis very awesome. Grimaldus works rather well as a Footslogging chappy. Fast, cheap for what you get, ect.

That, or you can just use Land Raider Crusaders...

CK

Stelek wrote:
They only have a 4+ save. If you are in cover with Black Templar Crusader squads, you are doing something wrong (usually).

Who said anything about cover?

So when someone wails on you with lots of shots, as happens now in 5th edition, you end up losing those neophytes and your crusader squad only gets one free pass at taking that damage.

The same amount of shots at terminator's kills the same amount of points. And I can deal with plasma much better. Lots of shots kills anything that isn't a tank, how is this an issue for Crusader Squads alone?

Since you seem able to deliver 14 marines + an IC into combat every single game against such excellent opposition, I can see why you'd think they are "good".
Stick them in drop pods or crusaders and you'll still have scoring units.

I stick them in crusaders... Which is also how I can deliver them into combat in the majority of my games without taking a hit.

Yeah, all the black templar armies (the one you run, you suggest, and everyone else runs) get annihilated by all of the armies I possess. GT's, RTT's, and friendly games. Well built Black Templar lists don't depend on the troops (because they actually aren't any good).

Their better then most troop choices. I don't see why you hate them so.

I'm sure you can beat terminator squads when you charge.

Can you beat terminator squads that charge you? No.

I can, to the degree any 220p troops squad can stand up to those expensive squads of death.

Can you beat marked Chaos terminator squads? No.

I can, much easier then I can charging assault squads. Even Nurgle/Pleasure Terminators go down, much easier then you seem to think.

So you can beat asscannon squads with power fists.

Grats! Pretty meaningless hyperbole.

I can't read the OP's text, he chose red so I'm actually only replying to replies.

I sure can see the idiocy of taking terminators in a thousand points. No one can kill 'em, they can't kill the lrc they come in, yeah...it's idiocy allright.

Term squad in an LRC? In 1000p, that's half you army.

Running big beater squads or hordes is what the smaller game is all about.

I see you recommend the horde approach and take great umbrage at others suggesting anything else for "your" Black Templars.

Not really. I generally concede others points, and most of my points this thread have stressed how people should try for themselves. I am of the opinion that forums are not to be that trusted, try to find what you like best and what you find works best, not what some random screenname does. Sure, I refute things, but so do you. You have "your" idea of Black Templars, and from what I see, it is much harder set then mine.

Maybe you can be less hostile when you reply.

True, I was being a dick, sorry.

If you think running Black Templars the way you suggest running them requires any experience playing them, I hate to tell you that it doesn't. Not by a long shot.

It... Does. It's not the most complex list, but is by far not the easiest. Besides, simple is good, and doesn't mean you need any less ability or any less tactics. With a list like mine, you have very few things to win you the game, so how you play those units means everything. It's not like horde orks where you can lose 30 boys like it didn't matter.

K I can't really sort out the orange and quoting.

My friend uses preds not whirlwinds.

Everything else is so negative, just don't see the point.

Stelek wrote:K I can't really sort out the orange and quoting.

My friend uses preds not whirlwinds.

Everything else is so negative, just don't see the point.

How was any of that negative? I forced myself to not be such a prick. Can't I counter-point without being negative?

5 land raiders (3 crusaders) and what ever you need to get to fill points.

Both of you are 50% right. Stelek makes a great point that BT terminators are some of the most dangerous termies to use currently in the game. Largish sized crusader squads with neophytes in them are good. Neophytes however should only be be taken in small amounts. The reason is that they don't benefit from Vows. They are needed to soak up fire though and are also used to trigger zeal moves easier. I disagree with HotSoup that the chappies are the better choice for templars. In 4th they were clearly superior. Marshals really shine in command squads...something that HotSoup and I disagree on. Command squads are overlooked by many Templar players as they are seen as too expensive. But it is probably the most versatile unit they can take in terms of options. Where the marshal really shines is when he is in a command squad since he can't be singled out in close combat. If you have the points you can add in furious charge (although I almost always do.). Stick them in a crusader and watch them burn through the enemy. There is very little that can survive an assault vs. them. At that point you are using the EC and a your other crusader squads as objective takers and foils. Currently, I have been running my 3 LR hull army at 1750pt in this configuration and have not lost a game with it yet. It's quite the porcupine. Chaplains are nice, but in 5th is not a requirement anymore...which is quite refreshing.

Capt K

What's really nice about command squads (retinues) that alot of people forget, is you can shred wounds off on the master and really take out alot of damage from different units in CC.

Having a 2+ save with 2 wounds to burn really helps against regular hits.

Indeed. Add in the cheap apothecary (a steal for 15pts) and you have the ability to allocate wounds to the marshal to save bodies vs. shooting...then if he fails you ignore at least one. Zealing with this unit isn't necessary if you have the LRC. Or you be cagey as to when you want to accept shooting casualties to get a zeal roll. Either way a BT command squad is a flexible unit of killy death when used properly and judiciously. The best is when you phalanx with 3 LRC's and keep the killy stuff inside. It keeps melta weapons away since they risk getting assaulted off the board if they can't manage to knock out the raiders.

Capt K

Oh I dunno, in 5th I'll speed bump with melta units if I can get a 6" range shot with them on raiders.

It's always worth it, since it's your best shot to blow them up.

Number one DEFENSE against an onrushing raider horde? Fast expendable vehicles. Circle the wagons on 'em and watch 'em squirm as they can't go anywhere. Sure they'll probably light you up in shooting, and so? Stopping Land Raider movement is one of the best ways of countering the army.

Oh and since vehicles are so critical in 5th for objective guarding and enemy tank control, most armies should have some.

True. That tactic can work, then again not many armies have fast expendable vehicles...or are fielding them these days. Since 5th edition has come out and all the games I've played with it the only real time I am dealing with vehicles like that is vs. orks. I have only faced landspeeders once. Rhinos don't slow me down since I'll either assault them away, ram them away, or just shoot them.

Capt K

Sorry, Rhinos don't slow you down...but if you are assaulting or shooting them away...they have slowed you down.

Ramming them away should be difficult at best when the Rhinos are moved at you properly.

So... I should be going to the local hobby store tonight. Thanks for the input & help!

Stelek, you make an interesting point regarding Land Raiders being used as objective holders. I'll need to toy around with this idea, as I've primarily been using my vehicle slots to field a), tank hunting Land Speeders and b) Vindicators with Machine Spirit.

I've tended to take beefy Crusader Squads (typically 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes) to protect my holdings in the rear, since I've found them more cost-effective than Land Raiders (even though they don't have ranged firepower, they don't run the risk of going poof if my opponent decides to lob a Lascannon my way).

I will say that a fun tactic I've taken to recently is the combined arms Crusader Wall approach. Taking 3-4 Crusader Squads of 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes, backed up by a couple of Tank-Hunting Terminator Squads and 3 Vindicators with Power of the Machine Spirit (as well as the EC and a Marshal...and a Command Squad if you can afford it) really makes for a brutal mid-range army that does a great job at area-denial.

It fails in a defensive posture, but it allows you to influence your opponent's moves based off the location of the Tank Hunter Assault Cannons and, more importantly, the location of the 3 Demolisher Cannons. Shifting the Vindicators right or left within the block of Marines will cause your opponent to pick at the opposite side of your formation.

Anyway, my two cents. Sounds like I'll be needing to pick up some Land Raiders soon.

CK