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I played a Tau player recently as well. When confronted with the TLOS bit we just treated it as 4th Ed rules. Due to the battle not being static, the squad gets a 4+ cover save in a building. It was friendly game so I didn't really care.

onlainari wrote:So let me get this straight, as I think I've just learned something today.

Each of my models only has to see one model in the target unit to shoot, but wounds can be allocated to every model in the unit?

I don't think models in the same unit block LOS.

No, olympia, you are right about that.
You are also right that it has nothing to do with the post you qouted,

Not sure why he was so miffed... it is very similar to how it worked in 4E. You checked LoS for each model, using a model's eye view.
The only difference was using area terrain.

I have 5 models called a, b, c, d, and e shooting at a unit of 10.

a and b see 4 models

c, d, and e see 10 models

Do they get a cover save?

What if a, b, c, and d see 4 models?

While Yak gave the most correct answer, if game speed has a higher priority for you, this is the time you can both agree to go with a 5+ save.

Steelmage99 wrote:No, olympia, you are right about that.
You are also right that it has nothing to do with the post you qouted,

He asked if EACH of his models had to draw LOS. The answer is not if they are blocked by members of the same unit. I'm sorry you were unable to understand that.

less of that fine Guinness for you, sir.

Grrr, I was recently playing a tournament where my opponent insisted that I couldn't shoot gaunts that my models could see between the legs of his TMCs. For some reason he just flat-out refused to hunker down and see what the models were seeing--instead he wanted to establish LoS by drawing top-down lines from above with the measuring tape turned on edge.

No matter how many times I tried to suggest nicely that he come over and look to see that my lascannon guy could see the carni's legs, or whatever, on either side of the trunk of that tree, he wanted to insist--4th ed style--that because his measuring tape couldn't make a line from the lascannon to the base of his model without passing through the widest part of the foliage, I couldn't shoot.

It really opened my eyes to the fact that there's still a widespread lack of understanding about how TLoS works differently from 4th edition.

Except it doesn't really work that much differently that 4th edition, or even 3rd edition for that matter. It's the widespread misunderstanding of the 4th edition line of sight rules that's leading to so many problems with the rules in 5th edition.

I have to take a deep breath in a tournament when I have to explain two or three rules in all three games I play. At the same time I'm satisfied that every rule I make plain to an opponent will help every game that opponent plays in the future, and the community benefits. Sometimes I get taught a lesson as well...

There will always be issues and growing pains with a new game edition, but the more effort we put into educating each other, the stronger our game-fu. I try to think about that when I'm explaining rules. Most of the time I feel my opponent understands that I'm not trying to put one over or cheat, but trying to get it right. Of course there are players out there who are not centered in their chi, who act like an ass and cheat to boot, but I persevere and try to be patient. To allow them to push me off balance would be the true loss, whether or not I win the game.

Lesson over. (gong sound).

karlfranz wrote:...and can you see through floors in ruins if they are under you?

I don't think this was specifically answered but I had a similiar thing come up. Troops have to be able to draw line of sight to their target so if the floor/wall is all they see then no. Reference is the last sentence of the "Firing out of area terrain" bullet on pg 22.

Just a thought about this TLOS. I played with one of my buddies in my Local GW, he just came back from GT Vegas. He told me that if you have a special weapon (plasma, melta, etc), you have to check if the target will get the cover save from that shot. So if 9 guys is shooting through cover and that "special" guy has a clear shot, then the opponent will get cover save from the 9 guys shots and no cover save for that one guy.

Please tell me if this is NOT correct. This is so lame.... I lost 2 vehicles to it.

Incorrect: the diagrams in the shooting/cover save section clearly show that cover is determined by the majority of the unit - not individual weapons. So if 4 out of 5 guys have obscured LOS (but can still see) even if the 5th guy is firing a melta, the squad taking the cover saves would get to roll for all the wounds.

The Governator Council wrote:Just a thought about this TLOS. I played with one of my buddies in my Local GW, he just came back from GT Vegas. He told me that if you have a special weapon (plasma, melta, etc), you have to check if the target will get the cover save from that shot. So if 9 guys is shooting through cover and that "special" guy has a clear shot, then the opponent will get cover save from the 9 guys shots and no cover save for that one guy.

Please tell me if this is NOT correct. This is so lame.... I lost 2 vehicles to it.

That's wrong. Certainly the special weapon would have to check LOS individually (like everyone else in the unit), but cover save would be determined normally.

This has not been a big issue in this area that I am aware of. In most of the games being played around here I would say that line of site issues are generally taken at face value.

If someone is shooting at a squad that may or may not involve a TLOS issue we have generally just asked how many of the firing unit can see the target and check to see how many of the firing squad are in range.

We then ask if most of the target squad are in cover or not. For the most part this has not been a contentious issue and in most cases, if the player controlling the firing squad has stated that most of the target is either in or out of cover and his reply has been taken as true without argument. It is the rare occassion that I have seen the laser pointer used and in most of those cases it has been used because the firing player could not honestly decide exactly what his unit could clearly see. I also have yet to see agame where the 5+ cover save has been used due to the players being unable to decide. I have yet to run into a player who has visibly appeared to be embarassed or annoyed to either ask or be asked to check a TLOS cover issue.

DAaddict wrote:
Try playing 5 or 6 turns in two hours when someone asks you to check the TLOS for 30 orcs and that is one unit!! So if I insist you will throw your hands up in disgust when the judge calls time because we barely managed to get through 3 turns.

A straight stick etc that is long enough to cover both groups would make it easier to work out if half or more of your guys could see half or more of his guys without individually checking. Just pivot the stick around whatever obstacle was in the way. I'm assuming this was for cover saves the LOS was being checked for.

Asking/Double checking that true line of sight be used as well as taking the time to see who can and can't see and shoot is a reasonable request and any player who is a good sport will not have a problem with it.

I've always ensured that I and my opponents adhere strictly to the rules, even to the point where my opponent played a rule wrong and if I had allowed it I would have benefitted illeagly.

Yes it can slow the game down, but if both players are sure as to "what is what" and "who can and can't shoot" then it helps prevent an argument further down the road and for me, win or lose I enjoy the game far more knowing that I played the best I could.

As for slowing the game down, I've never really noticed this much as me and my opponents are usually chatting a lot during the game anyway, for a tournement I could see why it would be annoying but still, its not your fault if your opponent is using 4th Ed rules and not TLOS.