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Preferred Enemy is a killer, I have to say. It's important to remember that the Neophytes do not benefit from this special rule, only the Initiates. So you're only dealing with half the squad rerolling to hit. So you'll mostly see this sorta thing on a counter-charge:
10 initiates, 8 CCW/pistol, 1 melta 1 PF (26 attacks on the charge +2 PF attacks)
10 neophytes, CCW/pistol (30 attacks on the charge)

Initiates: 26 attacks, 19.5 hits, 9.75 wounds 1.083 dead warlocks
PF Initiate: 2 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.3125 dead
Neophytes: 30 attacks, 0.8333 dead

total? 2.23 dead warlocks, not exactly crippling, but yeah it sucks the big one. Although, compare this to a seer council charge (assuming 10 witchblade locks +farseer) will kill 6.1 initiates (or 9.2 neophytes, more likely wound allocation), at I5.


Now, I know you don't run them, but consider what a pair of fire prisms will do to one of these 20-man squads caught out of cover (no one's gonna be able to hide 3 20-man CC marine squads, nor do they usually try.) S7 AP3 large blast that's TL BS4. They go bye bye.

Remember that prisms are not as resilient as 4e so against a shooty army they are KPs on a silver platter.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Remember that prisms are not as resilient as 4e so against a shooty army they are KPs on a silver platter.

G

Obviously you utilize their 60" range. Just throwing them (FP's) in front of a gun line is just asking them (opponent) to shoot the piss out of it.

Alot of quality discussion here.

what is the range on the dire avengers?? i dont play eldar so IDK.

if its 24 whittling them down will be a chore but doable.

if its 18 your in trouble.

if its 12 your in for an uphill battle.


the guy i play vs most often tends to deploy all 3 squads streched accros the board. so if you hit one squad with a pie plate, you hit all 3. because he is fearless, he runs toward you at D6 +3 inches (for the chaps servitors)

i play tau, so ya. in 5th, i lose most of my battles vs him. soft, squishy, really should be BS 4 troops FTW

o well... i am starting sisters now (got a few models allready, getting a load more off of dakkas swap shop).

lets see how his 20 man squads like 5 heavy bolters with AP 1 on a wound roll of 6, and 2 excorsits

I have noticed that the better eldar players I know don't use Prisms. They have the synergy but it is a double edged sword... Once one is gone the other is no longer a real threat to most any threat. I would rather use one Falcon since it can shoot a lot and is a transport as well. The combined arms approach is the better way to build an eldar list in 5e. You can take a good number of units such that losing some of them does not detriment the strength of the remainder.

Honestly if two seer councils mounted were that good I think we would be seeing a lot more of these lists. It's not like it has not already been tested.

G

Maybe will be seeing a lot of these lists, it's sure working well for me against the top lists, and honestly, I hope I am the only one that keeps with it,

Dire avengers shoot 18 inches: you shoot, depending on how far they close in, you remount and fly away, or you charge block/tank shock with the serpent they road in on

First, fire prisms are ok, but bad for a number of reasons:

1) Free kp, as GBF said
2) 60 inch range is all well and good, but boards are only 48 wide. If your opponent deploys his lascannons more than a couple inches in, he can reach most anywhere. Including your prisms.
3) They scatter and suffer from the same big gun syndrome that leman russes do

IMO, its best to run them naked and just take your very cheap nice tank and just hope you can play cagey enough to keep it alive, that being said, I still don't run mine anymore

Falcons are a far worse choice for a number of reasons:

1) Its an armor 12 tank that costs nearly as much as a land raider
2) Its no longer hard to hit in combat
3) It no longer downgrades all hits to glances
4) If it wants to stay "safe" (meaning getting a fickle 4+ save) it can shoot 0 guns.
5) If it wants to move more than 6 inches, it can shoot 1 gun. Yet you have to purchase the others anyways.
6) If it moves less than 6 inches and fires, its still a BS 3 tank that is ignoring its transport capacity, and you'll do more damage with a cheaper prism.

GBF I'm not quite sure you're qualified to say what the best way to build eldar is, as you play BA, not eldar.

Your aft named "combined arms approach" is basically saying to play multiple small units, ie, independently functioning units that don't require support and lots of them. I don't know of anything in the eldar codex that satisfies those conditions, as every unit has a great strength, and a great weakness, its the whole eldar theme. MSU doesn't work with KP anymore, and eldar especially are bad at MSU, as our units are easy enough to kill to begin with and are too expensive to pull this off as well.

Eldar armies are based on synergy and specialization, if you lose a unit or two in an eldar army, it heavily detriments the rest of the eldar army, thats the way it is.

Also, as you've never played against dual council, and I haven't read anyone else making this list, I'd say it hasn't been well tested.

The reason you don't see the plethora of seer council armies is for a number of reasons:

1) Its not as good as NOB BIKER, yet has a lot of the same ideas

2) There are no models for it

3) The conversions are fairly difficult and time consuming, not to mention expensive

4) Eldar have and always have had a stigma to most players of being some combination of the insults: gay, homos, flaming, girls, pansies, etc. Many players won't play them simply because of this. I believe in your other thread wingwong called this type of list a "queercouncil". Its pathetic, but gamers tend to act like pseudo-macho douches for some reason.

Eldar are no longer stigmatized by the holo falcon so if you can win consistently with this army good gamers will respect you.

Are you sure the Falcon is BS3? I trust you if you say so. : )

Have you considered the strength of war walkers in 5e? They can always be held in reserve and have out flank. Combine this with guide and/or doom and you have a strong unit when they arrive.

While I strictly play power armor only I do face all the other armies so I have a particular perspective or insight so you might say as to what works well against Marines. For instance I feel certain you must field three strong troop choices to be able to win objective based missions. Here is an edge for eldar since they can field pathfinders, dire avengers and guardians mounted on jet bikes. The jet bikes are really fast and can almost always avoid assaults. The pathfinders are good at sitting in an objective and shooting. The dire avengers are expendable and have the ability to shoot very well with blade storm plus guide and/or doom. These types of combinations are what I am talking about when I mention synergy and a combined arms approach.

People are all hyped about the new jargon alpha strike but the DoW deployment takes away from this concept. Some people say that if you can dominate two of the three following categories you will win - movement/shooting/assault. I disagree as holding objectives is now another category to be added to these three. Who can dominate in three of four categories... that is what we what we should design our armies to do.

G

Eldar were stigmatized LONG before the Holo-falcon nonsense, they've been stigmatized since their release due to their likeness to elves. Good gamers will respect you, but theirs still a large amount of stigma in the community to playing eldar, and many people avoid the army for that reason. I've played eldar for 10 years. It's always been like this.

Also shown by how that stigma was alive and running a couple hours ago when someone called it a queercouncil. I live with, I don't care much, its obnoxious, but c'est la vie.

The only added stigma of the holo falcon was that eldar were just easy mode and took no skill to play (the same stigma that orks get, and nidzilla has gotten for its BS).

Falcon is BS3, the only vehicle the eldar have thats BS4 is the fire prism

Walkers are suck. Sure you can hold them in reserve, but they're expensive and extremely fragile, and if they stay in reserve you lose shooting for several turns. If they outflank they're coming on from the sides close to the enemy and get assaulted, just about the worst scenario for them. The best (and only imo) way to field these is if you max them at 9 walkers with high rate of fire guns (scatter lasers, shuriken cannons) and play gunline eldar.

Dire avengers, believe it or not, are the most resilient eldar troop. 4+ save, good leadership, and a fairly resilient transport. Wraithguard are more resilient, but come in at 396 points, so aren't really much of an option.

Rangers (or pathfinders) are worse than DA's in assault (which is saying something) and one flamer template ends the entire unit.

You're viewing the eldar from the outside looking in, you need to play them to get a real perspective. Whenever you make an eldar list with psychic powers involved, you know right off what they'll be used for. My farseers will be out in front, in the thick of it, they'll fortune for their own unit every turn. As such, I can't factor in guide, a power for enhanced shooting with a 6 inch range, into any of the rest of my army. Etc, etc. Powers are limited, not everyone will get the benefit of them.

You can't factor in Doom/Guide in every units effectiveness. They're expensive powers coming off an expensive HQ choice. Every unit is great when you add these in, but you need to "think outside the box" when it comes to units utility and just plugging guide or doom into the equation.

Jet bikes have trouble avoiding assault against even fleeting opponents if they want to be effective, with a 12 inch range and a 6 inch assault move. Keep in mind, 10 jetbikes is 220 points. However, they're LD 8 marines.

How well would one of your power armor units of 3-9 marines stand up to of focused fire, keeping in mind thats all jetbikes are, fast marines that fold in combat and have ld 8 and don't benefit from ATKNF. Doesn't take long to wittle down a squad of jetbikes.

They also can't stand up whatsoever to drop pod or deepstrike armies such as space marines or daemons. Obliterators and lash princes and plague marines will all shrug off their fire and drop them with shooting in short order.

Dakkafexes shred jetbikes putting out 2 dead jetbikes at least per fex just due to the number of wounds.

Orks with waagh or bikes or battlewagons will get them into combat and be relatively unphased by their low amount of firepower. Even if not a mob of shoota boys will drop a jetbike squad with 18 inch range.


As a last point, before I think I just let this thread die, your belief that eldars greatest strength is their troops, is actually their greatest weakness.

Eldars troops are the biggest problem with the transition to fifth edition. They are the weakest troops in game. They're high cost, low number, low toughness, and short ranged. Our longest range troop squad is 18 inches, every other choice fires at 12 inches. Compound this with the fact that our troops are almost as bad as tau in combat, and you don't have a pretty picture. Add into this that our troops are unable to fulfill other roles effectively (combat, tank hunting, etc) and its hard to build a last that can handle other lists, and also provide enough scoring options, as our troops are pretty lacking.

Im not saying eldar aren't playable, or that they're not still a viable army. I'm obviously a die hard and will be for quite some time. But the equation isn't as simple as you make it out to be, primarily because you don't know well enough how eldar function.

Pathfinders and dire avengers have range greater than 12".

G

Please don't moan about how bad eldar are: It was noted at last year's GT across lots of countries that Eldar and Orks are performing "particularly well this year". In the heat I went to in UK, 13 Eldar out of 15 qualified and roughly the same with orks... That's in a total of 45!! You guys have a very good codex with lots and lots of options and possible good builds... You actually have some choice rather than the current cookie cutter of most codexes.

War walkers are bad? Ummmmmmm... Right

If your rangers are in combat then, to quote Point Break, "you're just not doing it right!"

And you talk about getting jetbikes rapid fired from a unit of marines? Please see the above Keanu related comment.

You cannot quote constantly the "rock" to your "scissors" as that's just pointless... Fexes eat lots of armies, Marines can be a pain, Etc Etc... All of these things can be combatted with good tactics.

The "Queer Council" comment was by me...

I have no problem with Eldar, I have an Eldar army waited to be painted... I do, however, have a problem with the mounted council.

Like lash, the price of basic orks and nob bikers, it seems like something that just hasn't had the necessary testing. If you look at top table tournament builds and 90% of them have the exact same unit in then something is, IMO, wrong...

I ran dual Lash/oblit spam last GT so I'm not pointing at people here; I just think it is an overpowered unit that hasn't really had enough testing to fit into line with the other armies... Doubley so when you consider the importance of seizing/contesting objectives in this edition.

Saying that, I have a unit of 8 planned for my eldar army as they are that good and I'm lame. I still think 2 is too much at this point range.

And, personally, I think both prisms and falcons are struggling to justify their points anymore; there are much better things to spend points on nowadays IMO and I would fear different builds slightly more. (although, saying that, FPs can be a pain in the ass at times)

War walkers are good for sure.

G

Imo there is no such thing as a top-allcomers build for Eldar at the moment. The discussed list is pretty good.

How do you deal with first turn? Starting on the board or not you shouldnt have fortune for a turn when the opponent has first turn.

In general I think pathfinders are not so hot... There great cover save is negated by dropping flamers, sternguard, thundefire, etc... the list goes on as to what can kill them with ease.

I am a bit of a moron I guess and still really like the FP. How will they do against nob bikers?

BTW, as much as I dislike parhfinders... how do you think they'd do versus nob bikers? Can they pin them? If so that's reason enough to include them. Sorry if it's a silly question but I don't have my book handy.

ender502

Its sad when you start wishing for Stelek to be back. A least his snarkiness kept the stupid replies to a minimum and while driving you half mad gave good advice with support as to why he was right.


To Raider and Ender, who actually posted something useful...

Raider: First turn is an issue if you don't win it, and typically I just have to minimize losses first turn and stay away from him, then use speed to get back in the game on turn 2. Typically this results in me losing a warlock or two to his long ranged guns, but not much more.

Ender: You're correct about pathfinders. Its not just a "scissor to their paper" argument. Any aspect of the game that isn't shooting that doesn't remove cover saves, will remove them. They're resilient against 1 out of several possible killers, and are horrible for holding objectives for this reason.

-Not a moron for liking FP, they're arguably one of the best heavies we have now. Against nob bikers, not so well, only the small shot will IK them, they'll still get a cover save, and with the way they spread out you'll never get more than 2 under it, without scatter. However, they're great against horde armies and many others, so their versatility is one of their strengths.

-Pathfinders are no good versus biker nobs, here's why:

10 Path finders -> 7 Hits, 3.5 wounds, (1 of those 3 on average being ap1). He'll get a 4+/4+ against the 2.5 wounds, meaning you'll do ~.5 wounds, and then get a 4+ versus your ap1, so another .5 wounds. On average 10 pathfinders will do 1 wound to a unit of nob bikers, and then force a pin check. However they have LD 10 with the warboss, and a boss pole, so they won't be failing it

Two Councils on jetbikes are tough but once you failed to cast fortune for some reason (psychic hood), the Councils cripple.
I'd take one large Council and add some variety to the army, say two or three Prisms.

Eldar were my first army and I am very glad to see theyare really a topic of discussion. Also, glad to see there are some strong views about how to make eldar work well.

I wonder how the ground pounding lists work against top tier lists in comparison to mechdar? I think Bloater has some points in "opening our minds" (remember total recall?) to ne wpossibilities. I think mechdar is probably a stronger list but not necesarily against the top tier armies.

Just a thought.

ender502

That comment was uncalled for targetawg... you have all the snarkiness needed for this discussion.

G

What can I say, you bring out the worst in me.

I posted this thread for comments on my planned GT list and also opinions on eldar in general that would be based in fact and well supported. That's all I want here. If you're just going to post "this unit roxzorz lol" or "i agree" or "think outside the box", there's no need to post. If my cut and dry attitude towards it offends you, all apologies, but thats the way I feel, and I take offense to people clutterig and derailing the thread I started.


Eldar Ground Pound:

I've tried heavy ground pound lists of eldar, especcially when fifth first came out after seeing the damage the tempest launcher/crack shot did. They do wonderfully against most armies, but as soon as you face a drop army of some sort, or an army like the orks where no amount of shooting can kill it sufficiently in two turns, you struggle to stay alive. Once my opponents learned that my army should chew up any foot element they deployed, they adapted, and the ground pound army was fairly ineffectual. Other armies (imperial mainly) can pull off ground pound due to things like the mystic combo from the DH dex, as eldar have no real answer to deepstrike, imo, ground pound is a heavily flawed build.

That being said, I still find it to be fun, and am trying to figure out a successful way to field it.

Mechdar simply is one of the more resilient builds as it plays to eldars biggest strength: mobility.

Eldar in tha Hood:

Thats my main fear with this list, a hood army and some bad rolling meaning my two units o doom both go without fortune. This is the main consideration I've had for just maxing a council, drop the second, and use the leftover points for 3x fire prism. I'll give it a try this weekend and see how I like it, then post the results here.

I found that the missions requiring to occupy/contest objectives favors MEQ armies.
Imagine a drop podded Space Marine army landing upon the objectives.
Ten Marines are hard to destroy for a shooty Eldar army, especially if the game lasts only for five rounds.
The same holds for Dreads, thanks to the new armor damage table.

Targetawg

I am not offended by any means... but I do find it quite hilarious you think I only play BA. Nowhere have I used any l33t speak in this thread... why did you say that? I do have to say you came across as a p*nk in my recent BA army list thread though.

Anyways I have offered you some good advice. I know you will do what you want... which you should since in the end it is your army.



wustenfeux

I agree with what you have said wholeheartedly. Here are some batreps from three recent games against eldar you might find interesting:



BA vs Eldar Batreps

G

Green Blow Fly: I'd say better than 50% of your posts were merely snappy one liners, which came off more as trolling than anything. You don't like the way people respond to you, try not to be so abrasive.

Two builds I'll be testing this weekend after more discussion with Kirika off DD

1750:

Build 1:

HQ: 955

Jet Council 1: 485
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike -> 130
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden Jetbikes ->355

Jet Council 1: 470
1 Farseer: Fortune, Jetbike -> 115
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, Jetbikes ->355

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Total: 1750

Build 2:

HQ: 720

Jet Council 1: 590
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Mind war Jetbike -> 170
8 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, 2x Destructor, Jetbikes -> 420

Autarch: Jetbike, laser lance, mandiblasters -> 130

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Heavy Support: 230

2x Fire Prism Grav Tank


Total: 1745

I will be very interested to hear how your lists with prisms fares. Why no upgrades?

G

I like list #2 better against biker nobs. The mond war will hav egreat applications for negating the FNP doc... the autarch will also help witha slew of no save high S attacks... and I am partial to prisms.

Let us know how it goes. While I finish my marine collecting, I am slowly putting together an eldar mech force. More info is good info.

ender502

I think lootas will quickly drop the prizms and remember that cover saves now work against mond war.

G

Have you considered changing one of the DA squads into a tri-flamer Storm Guardian unit? It seems like it would be ideal for its ability to deny cover, especially for units that like to sit back and hold objectives (like SM scouts or Pathfinders). And no one can debate the effectiveness of the flamers on GEQs/Orks!

Flamers instead of DA's:

two reason for me, although I've toyed with the idea:

1) Don't own storm guardians
2) I feel like the DA's are more resilient

However yea, I think they'd be a good alternate choice, arguably better

Prisms:

No upgrades just because points are hard to come by, and I don't think stones will make much of a difference for them since I won't be moving far enough to get the save anyhow, and don't need to keep moving as much since it isn't a transport. But yea, I'm torn on how badly these will bleed KP

Lootas make short work of just about every tank outside of land raiders unfortunatley, I'll just have to hope to avoid them to some extent, but I feel whatever a loota spam hits in my army will die, even the council couldn't stand up to 45 lootas.

Mind war does ignore FNP though, so its a bit better odds to take out a nob biker, on average you'll beat him by 3 points, doing 1.5 wounds, almost killing him, depending on his saves and if you roll high/low. I think its also worth it for the chance to hit farseer popping fists in squads.

I'll let you folks know how it goes (both variants) and start deciding on what to use. Im hoping the autarch will prevent bog down in combat since he has 6 str 6 power weapon attacks on the charge (doing much more damage to nob bikers, plague marines, etc).

"Mind war does ignore FNP though, so its a bit better odds to take out a nob biker, on average you'll beat him by 3 points"

Doesn't the nob has leadership 10 for these attacks if the mob is at full strength?

G

WingWong wrote:
The "Queer Council" comment was by me...

I have no problem with Eldar, I have an Eldar army waited to be painted... I do, however, have a problem with the mounted council.

...and a problem with inappropriate comments



To the OP. You seem to be getting ganged up on... I'm here to say that I'm pretty much with you on all of your eldar specific opinions.

Their troops are hurting a bit. Lots of people like to tell me the secret troop that I should be using. When I'm running foot dire avengers, everyone wants to tell me how much better bikes are. When I'm running bikes, people tell me to use wave serpent dire avengers. When I'm suing those and they aren't working its wraithguard. When I'm using wraithguard, people suggest foot dire avengers or pathfinders.

The real truth is similar to what you've said. No troop in 40k is hard hitting enough to replace elites/hq/heavies. With the exception of things that "become" troops. What smart players tend to do then, is to choose troops that can survive, and focus on damage output on other units. Eldar just have 1 of those survivor units. And its overpriced. Look at the top armies out there. demons - plague bearers, CSM- plague marines, orks - boys...

That painboy will have LD10 until you can knock a couple nobs of their bikes.

You can't win unless you have enough troops to last through the game and there is no getting around that.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can't win unless you have enough troops to last through the game and there is no getting around that.

G

And what gets troops through the game? Not getting shot or being able to survive being shot. In the first instance your troops are secondary to your ability to attack. They become mere objective holders. In that case just about everyone is better off than the eldar. In the second instance the eldar are pretty light on choices. Who can survive? The expensive wraithguard? Yep, but at a high cost. Guardians? Not even a choice if survivability is a criteria. Save 5+ for the fail!! The only options are DA and rangers/pathfinders. There are too many dropping flamer templates to justify the cost of pathfinders. The only choice is the supposed "mainstay" of the eldar army...the DA. That being said..... 230 points or so will get you 10 DA and a pretty decent little tank. 3 o fthose puppies shold leave you in good stead.

I forgot what my point was.

feth.

ender502