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Tyron wrote:Seeing as everyone here are saying they are bad how would you rewrite their rules and stats?

I'd say give them some kind of ammo options. A Str 5 Ap 4 that ignores cover. Their Normal Str 5, Ap 3. Then maybe a longer ranged shot that shoots like a normal bolter. Fits their fluff, they're using magic to change the way they can shoot. They can still move and shoot given slow and purp. The sorcerer still gets his power.

That sounds pretty good how many points would you suggest they be?

Anyone else have any ideas?

Tyron wrote:That sounds pretty good how many points would you suggest they be?

Anyone else have any ideas?

The same as they are now.

Come on people what else would you want?

A thousands suns army is not a viable tourny list. Neither is a plaguemarines army nor a noisemarine army or berserker army. They each have a very distinct specialization, and if taken in a fluffy deployment will rob you of the combined arms tactics that make the chaos army effective.

Thousand suns aren't bad, and can be a great thing to have if you're facing las/plas marines, dark eldar, jumpsuit tau, or anything else that mixes 3+ saves and high ap weapons. They are simply the most specialized of all the specialized troop choices in the codex and thus drop in overall effectiveness as their numbers increase.

Actually Plague Marine armies do well.

Typeline wrote:Actually Plague Marine armies do well.

With only nurgle based units and upgrades? Or is it just a standard lash chaos army with tons of plaguemarines? The plaguies are much less specialized then the rest of the special chaos troops. Being hard to kill isn't so much a specialty as it is just a thing you get to do. The rest of the legion troops have forced offensive roles. However the rest of the nurgle themed upgrades and troops aren't particularly powerful (though like the plaguemarines themselves they are also the least specialized.)

True, but you can do pretty well with just PMs and Nurgle Princes with Warptime, backed up with Oblits. Lash arguably makes it better, but it's pretty solid as-is. I've won a couple RTTs with such a list.

ShumaGorath wrote:A thousands suns army is not a viable tourny list. Neither is a plaguemarines army nor a noisemarine army or berserker army. They each have a very distinct specialization, and if taken in a fluffy deployment will rob you of the combined arms tactics that make the chaos army effective.

Thousand suns aren't bad, and can be a great thing to have if you're facing las/plas marines, dark eldar, jumpsuit tau, or anything else that mixes 3+ saves and high ap weapons. They are simply the most specialized of all the specialized troop choices in the codex and thus drop in overall effectiveness as their numbers increase.

Well Thousand Sons refers to the legion as well as the unit while Plague Marine just refers to the unit.

For example, a Death Guard themed army with Plague Marines and a bunch of a MoN stuff would be a fairly competitive list. Lash is by no means a necessity.

If you MUST take an army ENTIRELY comprised of an HQ + only one kind of troop then you are probably going to be better off with...any other kind of marine.

Nurgle Marines are highly specialized:

T5/I3
FNP
Blight grenades
2x special weapon

Are they the most specialized?

Noise Marines:
I5
Sonic blasters
Blast Master
Doom Siren

Khorne Berzerkers:
WS5
Furious Charge
No bolter
+1 attack

kSons:
Slow & Purposeful
AP3 bolters
4+ invulnerable save
Sorceror

The Nurgle Marines and Noise Marines are the true jack of all trades while Khorne and Tzneetch Marines are the most specialized when it comes to their purpose - close combat and shooting.

G

If the 'zerkers had bolters, they would be the best choice period. Even still, they are damn good in rhinos at only 21 pts a pop.

Nurgle Marines are highly specialized:

Not really, they are just regular marines for the purpose of offensive capability. They are just harder to kill. They are equally good in close combat and in melee thanks to their focus on bolters, special weapons, and high toughness. Berserkers need to be in close combat to be worth their points, thousands sons and noisemarines need to shoot. Having either unit tied down in a melee is a waste of their potential and having berserkers sit in a forest firing their pistols is madness. Plaguemarines feel great no matter what role they play.

Death Guard armies are highly competitive. Nurgle lord or DP, Plague Marines, and Vindicators. With just these units (all either marked or vehicles) you can fight nearly any army in the game. Your troops can kill armor at short range (meltaguns) and in assault (powerfists). No need for Oblits or any other non-vehicle units that don't have the Mark of Nurgle.

A Thousand Sons army (one with only a Tzeench marked HQ, Thousand Sons troops, and vehicles for HS) is much more difficult to play. The basic troops aren't well rounded enough to handle a multitude of tactical situations. You might be able to play them like a Sisters of Battle army (mechanized short-ranged shooting) but lack the massive flamers to counter cover. The Vindicator is an excellent HS choice for this army as it can bring some high strength firepower. Use rhinos to tank shock enemies out of cover and pelt them with Inferno bolts.

A World Eaters army can be effective if properly brought to bear. Kharn (or a lord w/ Mark) for HQ, Berzerkers for troops, and Land Raiders for HS. Nothing says "here we come!" like a LR full of berzerkers. They will have some trouble with armor until they can charge with the pfist and krak grenades (both at +1 S on charge). Still, their lack of ranged punch can be a liability and an army mobile enough to keep away will cause headaches.

One of the most competitive "pure" lists in the game in my opinion is the Emperor's Children list. This largely based on the power of Lash and NM shooting. Lash Prince(s) for HQ, Noise Marines for troops, and Defilers/Vindicators for HS. Tactics are pretty much standard for shooty armies with the addition of the Lash goodness for enemies vulnerable to such. Basic troops can have a tough time with vehicles since they have no melta weaponry and typically don't have fists.

Of course, the most powerful armies are the more well-rounded forces. They can freely use the unmarked-yet-powerful Obliterators, which are clearly the best HS unit in the Chaos arsenal. They can also combine powers like Lash with Thousand Son bolters and Khorne Berzerker assaults. "Undivided" chaos lists play very much like Eldar - each specialized unit playing its role to achieve victory on the field. Perfectly fitting for warriors that have survived thousands of years on the battlefield.

Now I'm rambling, so I'll stop.