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Golga wrote:I dunno, in the list im currently fiddling with I have 2 sterns and 2 tacs as well as a dev squad all in drop pods. in testing it has done some pretty serious damage.

A Dev squad in a Pod sounds pretty odd.
I could understand if the Pod would drop empty.

Nha I drop them about 14 or os away * if im lucky and dont scatter to much* grante dI wont be able to shoot that round but in the next they have 12 h bolter rounds coming at them XD.

More of a fluff thing for me ( crimson fists) ANd I need the extra drop pod so I could get 3 down first turn.

More of a fluff thing for me ( crimson fists) ANd I need the extra drop pod so I could get 3 down first turn.

I'd deploy the Devastators from the start and let their Pod contest if necessary.

Tau...

i want so much for my army to be able to actualy compeat with other armies ratehr then just tie games, or get a small minor victory. in 4th, i had no problems i did well in tournies (taking best overall at one).... but our troops are just to squishy for 5th

For SMs the only power build I see is Vulkan with storm shield thunder hammer termy spam. I've seen it in action and it just rolls over armies. Nothing can deal with 20 termies that re roll to hit and have a 2+/3+I save.

It's ridiculous.

So I would say the top lists are:

DUAL LASH,
HORDE ORK,
BATTLEWAGON ORK,
NOB BIKER ORK,
NIDZILLA,
DAEMONCRUSHER
VULKANHAMMER
LANDRAIDERSPAM

I think there are a couple other list that can contest:

MECHDAR
DARKELDAR AIRFORCE
SISTERS OF BATTLE EZBAKE
SISTERS OF BATTLE IMMOLATOR SPAM
PEDRO VANGUARDSPAM
BLACK TEMPLAR HORDE
SPACE MARINE DROP POD

There are probably more second tier lists but all of these
second tier armies are all good enough to force a draw against the top tier armies and sometimes beat them.

They just tend to have an inconsistency or flaw that can lead to losses against bad match ups. The top list can face up against anyone and win.

Pete

It doesn't work. Trust me. The list bleeds KP's to much to compete.

Capt K

captain.gordino wrote:What about IG with mech STs for troops, drop vets (5 man squads maxed on meltas, obviously) and maxed russes?

Pdeflorio wrote:For SMs the only power build I see is Vulkan with storm shield thunder hammer termy spam. I've seen it in action and it just rolls over armies. Nothing can deal with 20 termies that re roll to hit and have a 2+/3+I save.

It's ridiculous.

Bah, this just dies to rate of fire, massed gaurd lasguns nail this on the turn they deep strike, esp. as they can't assault so end up doing nothing. Shoota boyz also butcher the terminator squads. Most armies can put out enough fire-power to stop this list dead, hell even massed grots will cause problems.

dr vompire wrote:

Pdeflorio wrote:For SMs the only power build I see is Vulkan with storm shield thunder hammer termy spam. I've seen it in action and it just rolls over armies. Nothing can deal with 20 termies that re roll to hit and have a 2+/3+I save.

It's ridiculous.

Bah, this just dies to rate of fire, massed gaurd lasguns nail this on the turn they deep strike, esp. as they can't assault so end up doing nothing. Shoota boyz also butcher the terminator squads. Most armies can put out enough fire-power to stop this list dead, hell even massed grots will cause problems.

Your kidding me right? I play guard and let me tell you... massed lasgun fire does squat against this. Sure ive killed termies with massed firepower.... but in the end they still roll over the units.

It takes 360 lasgun shots to kill one terminator squad. Lasguns don't do dick to terminators.

True it takes a ton of lasguns to kill them. But when you start adding in plasma, flamers, melta, lascanons, grenade launchers, plasma pistols, autocannons, multi lasers, heavy bolters and all the other stuff mixed in with all those las guns, it really doesn't take as many lasguns as you might think. With a good mix of special and heavy weapons any additional las guns added to the mix will start to add up fast. Any guard player worth his salt will have a good amount of these and a deep striking nasty termy squad might take the whole army a turn to kill it but it should die. Just my 2 cents anyway...

Daemoncrusher. As it gets more and more play it should dominate tournaments this year. 24 Crushers and Kairos come in at 1293. Throw in 2-3 soulgrinders, 1 Bloodthirster and plague bearers in multiple minimum squads and you have a rock hard army. Drop the crushers early with Kairos and opponents usually play keep away then bring in soulgrinders plagues late to contest/shoot things off objectives. Not a very fun list to run after you try it a few times as it runs itself after the second game if you do it right. Kairos has become a auto include in Daemon lists because of the new psychic power in the Marine dex for rerollable saves btw.

Ardboyz was just a preview of it's capabilities this year as all you need to do is downsize to 3 squads of 5-6 crushers and it's just as effective in low points tourneys.

@sha1enade: We are not talking about other weapons. We are talking about lasguns killing terminator squads.

"Bah, this just dies to rate of fire, massed gaurd lasguns nail this on the turn they deep strike, esp. as they can't assault so end up doing nothing." -Dr. Vompire

I know the conversation was just las guns but who only takes them. It is IMHO implied as guard squads pretty much always have upgrades to the squad. But i will concede the point on lasguns but not on the squad as a whole as it SHOULD have been stated in the first place. Its like saying a ork squad without a Nob. Sure it could happen but not often. v

There are ways to counter Kairos such as inquisitors with mystics, psycannons and null zone plus landspeeder storms. The daemon crusher list is a 1st wave powerbuild to which there are already proven effective counters.

G

Juggernauts are also slow.

AND the army is weak against heavy armour. A mobile mechanized army (esp. land raider spam) can eliminate priority anti tank targets like the bloodthirster and soul grinders and then just avoid the blood crushers all game until Kairos is dead.

It's top tier to be sure, but hardly impossible to beat.

I would like to submit Shrike's 30 fleeting assault terminators plus fleeting Lysander to the list though. With some scoring scout filled land raiders for 'Ard Boyz.

Sha1emade wrote:True it takes a ton of lasguns to kill them. But when you start adding in plasma, flamers, melta, lascanons, grenade launchers, plasma pistols, autocannons, multi lasers, heavy bolters and all the other stuff mixed in with all those las guns, it really doesn't take as many lasguns as you might think. With a good mix of special and heavy weapons any additional las guns added to the mix will start to add up fast. Any guard player worth his salt will have a good amount of these and a deep striking nasty termy squad might take the whole army a turn to kill it but it should die. Just my 2 cents anyway...

But what you, and what everyone at the GT that I played against forgets, is that MODELS block line of sight. Alot of those guard weapons won't have LOS to the terminators. Because Guard players will have to stringe their army out across the board.

I played Guard first round of Ard Boyz. Had I played better and gotten in some practice, the army would have rocked. But I kept trying to play the old way, and then remembered about the new LOS rules.

Last saturday, i played in a small torny in a GW, it was 350 points, one HQ and the rest elites. But each elite moves on its own like a single unit. It was also kill the HQ and you win, so three termines can move around on there own. Getting to the point a guy there had 13 fire dragons and some weird Eldar HQ with a big gun, he won, i came second. He was unbeatable so in small games the fire dragons could work.

There are ways to counter Kairos such as inquisitors with mystics, psycannons and null zone plus landspeeder storms. The daemon crusher list is a 1st wave powerbuild to which there are already proven effective counters.

Whats the proven effective counter. They have won hardboyz and a have place high in all other tournaments and this was with various other lists and not the Daemon crusher list which people will start to use more often as they see it in action. Just drop into cover as far as Psycannons go and you still get a 4+cover rerollable with Kairos around. Drop 2-3 Soulgrinders if thier playing with mystics. Even with Lascannons they are in trouble. Point being if they build specifically to stop crush they are in trouble.

I dunno Lemartes, usually I agree with you, but I think this time you are conflating two great ideas with their good combo.

Khorne Daemons (Bloodcrushers, 4 Heralds, 4 Soul Grinders) is a great list.
Tzeentch Daemons (Kairos, 2 Heralds, 3 Princes, Tzeentch Daemons) is a great list.

Combining the two, to my mind, gives you something weaker than either one alone. Kairos replacing the 4 chariots really hurts you with regards to lash (they can move Kairos away and run Berserkers over Bloodcrushers alot easier than they can clear the 4 chariots) , and the Ork units that gave Khorne Daemons trouble (ridiculously enough, it turns out to be Killa Kans), still do. You've also introduced the Tzeentch Daemons vulnerability (psycannons shooting down Elvis, dropping a monstrous creature into cover is not as easy as one might imagine), and the Soul Grinders can't benefit from Kairos under most circumstances.

By contrast, you've removed the Tzeetnch daemons ability to shoot the enemy off other objectives with all those crushers, and this really hurts. You've basically got the Kairos bunker, but whichever half of your army you aren't with (going for his objective or defending yours) is going to lose the bonus, and pink horrors/blood letters can get shot down.

Further, recommending that someone play a Thirster from an account with credibility is positively unkind.

I'm not saying "Daemoncrusher" is weak, I just think that it's good, compared with Khorne or Tzeentch, which are great.

From my experience, Mech Eldar does not belong to top tier in 5th ed since fast skimmers suffered.
The same holds for Harlies. Seer Councils are now playable again but I found they are too expensive for what they can achieve.

Khorne Daemons (Bloodcrushers, 4 Heralds, 4 Soul Grinders) is a great list.
Tzeentch Daemons (Kairos, 2 Heralds, 3 Princes, Tzeentch Daemons) is a great list.

Can't do 4 Grinders which I am sure is just an oversight. My preferred list is Kairos, Thirster, Bloodcrushers as many as needed based on points, (no less than 10 ever) 2-3 soulgrinders, min maxed squads of plaguebearers. Lowest toughness is 5. Plagues you park in cover on objectives and go to ground for 3+cover 4+fnp. Thirster is thier to hunt armor and threat priority. Grinders almost always take Tongue to help hunt armor. Grinders are actually more resilient than most people give them credit for in multiples. Preferred drop is Kairos, Crushers, Thirster. Even if you get your unpreferred your getting Grinders and Plaguebearers. If you have the points banner one Crusher unit and one Plaguebearer unit. Don't believe me proxy some units and playtest agianst it.

There is a list that completely shuts down daemon crushers.

G

Sorry about putting 4 Grinders, Lemartes, as you say it was an oversight.

I do know how tough they are though, I've put up like 4 tourney reports on my experiences with them. I concur with you that Soul Grinders are amazingly resilient.

I've got nothing against Plaguebearers, as anyone who plays Daemons knows it doesn't really matter what your min-sized troop choices are. Bloodletters can help your fighters get out of combats swiftly, pink horrors can blow up tanks and have the changeling, plaguebearers are the hardest to shoot off objectives.

I just don't think Kairos combines best with crushers. Crushers have to go to the enemy, so Kairos does to. If they do that, he isn't back with the troops, and if the enemy can move away from the Kairos + crusher block they've got a shot at the troops. Kairos combines best with Tzeentch Daemons, who have a higher invulnerable save, and can stand on their objective and shoot the enemy's scoring units off of theirs.

For assaults, 4 Heralds on Chariots are much better at thwarting Lash than Kairos, and Lash is about the only way you'll have any trouble with assaults with the Daemon list.