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storm knight wrote:

Warboss Spleenstaba wrote:to bad they're crap in 5th

Lol coming from a ork player of BS5 and moves most of his tanks.
I think they go better especially with no partials!
Just take Null zone. Or you could use a thunderfire, doesnt that thing make dangerous terrain? Like move, run and assault thats like 3 dangerous terrain tests.

meant to quote this 2 sry

This is very true.

but 600 odd points in one squad does, unfortunatley, slightly (only slightly) disrupt its own force on the whole - as youve generally gotta pivot your plans on what that squad does. 3 ironclad, I think, would eat the termies.. and be there afterwards for the rest of this dug in force.. (Move through cover woo!)

Razerous wrote:This is very true.

but 600 odd points in one squad does, unfortunatley, slightly (only slightly) disrupt its own force on the whole - as youve generally gotta pivot your plans on what that squad does. 3 ironclad, I think, would eat the termies.. and be there afterwards for the rest of this dug in force.. (Move through cover woo!)

Though that is a very good point, I'd say that it only really disrupts your own plans as far as the vacancy of 600 points... which is a lot albeit but worth it.

Also, the 3 dreads that we seem to be focussing on for some reason, are dreads that normally enjoy podding into the middle of your army, taking out as much as they can before they get shot to death at long range. If you pod them against my termies, then I will be comfortable in knowing that a good chunk of your line breakers have just been effectively wasted to react to my own line breakers, which again, is the role that the terminators are supposed to play.

I'm sorry, did that sound rude? Seriously... I think I kinda sounded like an @$$ just now

If I had three podding Ironclads and you had jumpy shrike termies I would probably just use my linebreakers to break your line while you used your linebreakers to break my line.

NO LINES FOR ANYONE. The big difference here is that three ironclads can break a line faster than one assault termy squad and shrike. It's pretty easy to tarpit that one squad long enough to ensure that the rest of my army can either run away from it or fire their weapons for a stretch. Three ironclads are much harder to tie up given that there are three of them moving independantly and they all have ranged weaponry.

IC pods are definitly more KPs though.

In response to your Lightning claws VS TH/SS combo... Damage across the board is one thing, ability to reliably damage all the different variety of unit types. You be completely stuck against walkers w/ str 4 weps, likewise MC would be difficult/impossible to wound.

I assume lightning claws re-roll to wound, strike at @IX and are power weps at the models S --- Where as TH are double str, power weps, strike at I1 and cause wounded models to return hits at I1 aswell.. Right?

The SS isnt so much of an issue vs shooty ap2 with infiltratingness as you'll be closer and incombat sooner but against those power weps -its quite a nice improvement from 5++ to 3++


As to your more recent response : Yeah, good point. Counters to counters - but I think my counters will survive to face the rest of ur army (and for 90 less pts) although I will need another 2 pods @ 70 pts to allow those dreds to get into the drop pod assualt.

Im focousing on dreds (See the MotF 1500pt dred list) coz.. Ive fallen for them. Sowie.

Nah, you didnt. D/w

@ Shuma : Yea, more KP. 3 elite slots compared to one. Ranged weapons...weelllll kiiinda lol. In CC the dreds will win but in general the termies will be harder to remove as 3 shots could kill 3 dreds, where-as 3 shots could remove 3 wounds from that termie unit & theyve got inv saves.

Unlikey to one-shot an ironclad but they do have 10 rear armour. Drafty!

Ok... So I ran the numbers against the iron clads, and sans shooting, they have a 5/36 chance of killing one terminator per attack. Terminators have a 1/18 chance of destroying a dread though.

So the odds are pretty good for the 10 terminators to kill 2 dreads in 2 turns. Vs 3... I'm not so sure, but keep in mind that i gave the dreads the charge.

As in, rolling a hit, a 6 to pen & a 6 to the damage table? Mm.. rolling to hit, 2's to wound, 3+ sv. I do see your point. Pesky SS (Null is nice vs assualt termies I can imagine)

I was going for the -nuke shrike first & winning combat by wounds caused. Anything other than a destroyed result and the ironclad is pretty much dandy. I would be interested to have that (possibly staged) fight tho.

TalosNB do you play at the Chermside store because there is a guy there who always plays with shrike and at least 1 (yesterday he had 2) giant units of terminators in every game.

A unit of flamers (daemons) dropped next to shrike, killed 5 out of 8 termies and then drew the unit away through charging. They did nothing but run the rest of the game.

how much of that was because of great/bad rolling?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:TalosNB do you play at the Chermside store because there is a guy there who always plays with shrike and at least 1 (yesterday he had 2) giant units of terminators in every game.

A unit of flamers (daemons) dropped next to shrike, killed 5 out of 8 termies and then drew the unit away through charging. They did nothing but run the rest of the game.

I used to play at the store on queens st but now i play at Mt Gravatt the same store my mate plays at.

had a rematch with him last weekend to in which i dusted off my CSM's (always been a Khorne player) and pulled out the old notebook.

my list was:
kharne

10 CSM in rhino with fist, flamer and a plasma pistol.
had icon of khorne

12 CSM, fist and 2 plasma gun's
Icon of Glory

9 Khorne Bezerkers fist and 2 plasma pistols

6 Bikers Mark or khorne
flamer, fist and melta

3 Obliterators

1 defiler

1 Vindicator

Got a draw with him this time, he put shrike with his Assault marines which isnt as scary as infiltrating and fleeting termies.
capture objective battle with 2 objectives and night fight first turn, was the Dawn of War scenario.

my vindicator preformed very very well.
the defiler was a bit average due to bad placing on my behalf
CSM squad with icon of khorne took out 4 termies after being charge in the remains of their destroyed rhino
kharne got the charge on shrike and put some smack down on him killing him in the first round, the zerkers he was with killed the assault marines
and the bikers contested his objective, he was contesting mine with a corner of an empty rhino

This battle turned out alot different mainly due to him changing tactics because he hadnt versed a chaos army before

If you could mange to get into HTH with shirke and co with 8Assault termies with an Episolary all armed with TH//SS then you could gate out of combat and null zone them (what are the chances the libriarian would survive this first assault?) Put a vindi plate on them and a sub terr blast with a thunderfire and fire with any other available units. He'd be forced to take diff terrain checks if he wanted to assault you again.
Would this thin out their numbers much? I think its already been mentioned a little.

How would I deal? Abaddon, Chaos terminators with
power weapons or lightning claws and a chaos sorcerer with warptime and a force weapon.

Its an expensive unit, but it should do the job nicely, no?

Khor'Ghurneth wrote:How would I deal? Abaddon, Chaos terminators with
power weapons or lightning claws and a chaos sorcerer with warptime and a force weapon.

Its an expensive unit, but it should do the job nicely, no?

Check and mate i do believe

TalosNB wrote:

Khor'Ghurneth wrote:How would I deal? Abaddon, Chaos terminators with
power weapons or lightning claws and a chaos sorcerer with warptime and a force weapon.

Its an expensive unit, but it should do the job nicely, no?

Check and mate i do believe

Yeah... but then shrike runs away.

Remember, the assault termie/shrike unit infiltrates. And you can be assured that most people using such a tactic would not go toe to toe with a squad that could wipe them off the map.


In 1v1 yes... in a battle... no...


That is... unless warptime does something special...

If Abaddon and his squad is mounted in a land raider then i do believe they would be able to catch that pesky shrike

TalosNB wrote:If Abaddon and his squad is mounted in a land raider then i do believe they would be able to catch that pesky shrike

- Fleet
- Jump packs
- Terrian.


& Krak grenades on.. rear armor

Razerous wrote:

TalosNB wrote:If Abaddon and his squad is mounted in a land raider then i do believe they would be able to catch that pesky shrike

- Fleet
- Jump packs
- Terrian.


& Krak grenades on.. rear armor

Its same armour all round so yeh, it chould charge through terrain just have to hope you dont roll 1.

In the end i guess the point is moot really, both have their advantages and which one would win all depends on the battle and situation at the time

yermom wrote:Starting off the board is 1 of the worst things you could do. This is why.

Me: Haha my whole army infiltrates and fleets 1st turn charge!

You: Oh i'll just deploy off the board. Now what are you gonna do (evil laugh)

Me: Ummm let me think for a sec oh yeah deploy my rmy on your table edge so when all your infantry come on they die.

You: but wait I didn't think of that.

Me: I bet you didn't sucks to be you (evil louder laugh)

Unless he's also playing with a metric -ton of scouts he's not going to be able to do that and you can still tank shock through them, deep strike, leave one squad deployed to create an 18" no-infiltrators zone etc. It's really only an effective tactic if your opponent is an imbecile.

If someone's bringing 10 assult termies and shrike they've already passed the I care about being a dick in a friendly game phase they will most likely try this one.

No they haven't. Or is your definition of a friendly game 'one that I will win without having to think too much'?

10 assault termies and shrike is a pretty dick move in a friendly game. But then it really depends on who you're facing. That will basically route a tau line turn 1.

Ok... so lets start making a list here

Tau?= Boned

whose next?

I imagine that orks would just roll over these guys, sending in a squad of 30 boyz to handle it, or maybe 2 squads to handle it quickly... then again... since I know nothing about the new dex I'm probably wrong and will be shouted down for my stupidity

It would also wreck necrons pretty handily. Space marines too, so long as they werent very well built to handle it. An IG army without demolshers wouldn't stand much of a chance either.

An ork swarm would do alright.

Why do I never see any sniper drones in tau lists. Just played against em and thier nuts. Stealth fields in general are nuts. If only they could slow down an enemy advance would be great..

Oh wait, markerlights & pinning. Oh. Okay

Sniper drones give up a gakload of kill points and are worthless against horde.

Why can't you just instantly kill Shrike in CC with your monstrous creatures? He's the one that'll be doing most of the I2+ damage, and in CC he's just as vulnerable as anyone else. Pick that bitch out.

Also it sounds scary, but the only thing he can possibly follow this super death unit with is scout squads. And if you're running khorne/templar/orks they aren't scary at all.

In comparible points, zerks will crush these guys, lash them around if you're truly frightened. It'd seem like a waste, but that's HALF his list at 1500. If you just shove it away every turn with 300pts worth of princes, the rest of your forces can move in.

Failing that, move away from the bad thing, tarpit it, or(If not kill points) combat squad everything so that each turn he's only killing about ninety points of marines.


Also technically he can't infiltrate with a squad unless it's by outflanking. No attaching before the game has started unless in reserves right? So just point out that shrike can come, but no buddies unless it's his dedicated command squad?

I think that the ghost of dakka past decided that shrike could indeed come in 1st turn with his termie squad.

Don't ask me how, or why, I'm not even sure that I'm right... anyways

the scaryness of course, comes from the potential of a 1st turn assault, however unlikely that is. Also it might be hard to move your forces in when you've got almost 600 points of really powerfull melee troops careaning around the board like drunks trying out hotrods.

But you're right, any army that loves massed infantry assault has almost nothing to fear from this tactic. Other armies however are not so lucky

TalosNB wrote:If Abaddon and his squad is mounted in a land raider then i do believe they would be able to catch that pesky shrike

And cost even more then he and his friends do... I figure a warlord titan would do pretty well too .

An IG army without demolshers wouldn't stand much of a chance either.

I beg to differ. My usual response to termies is the humble lasgun (and some plasma). Against TH/SS termies, I'll do it with just lasguns and 50 conscripts. Considering the changes to hth in 5th, I'll be getting a ridiculous amount of both shots and attacks. Not to mention 50 conscripts = 200 points.

Some (very simplified ) mathammer:

lasgun shots at BS3 to kill a terminator: 36 => 360 shots to kill 10. 600 points of guards= 10 squads= 100 shots long range, 200 short range. In CC, you'll kill 0.3 termies with a 10-man squad. This is leaving out heavy bolters, plasma, etc...

50 conscripts = 1.4 dead terminators in CC
50 conscripts shooting at close range= 100 shots= 33 hits = 11 wounds is 2 dead terminators...

My command squad with 3 plasma guns, plasmapistols, medic with lasgun: (Yes HBMC, I know; but I like this squad and it works for me )
7 plasma shots = 4 hits (being generous), 3 wounds (not being generous), = 1 dead terminator.

Conclusion: weight of fire rocks. I regularly run 100+ guardsmen... I don't think shrike will make his points back, especially if I make sure his huge unit can only charge one of mine at a time.

And I do run tanks as well .


Pure weight of fire will tear these guys down; not elites. Note that I didn't even mention RRs, since they're screwed. Terminators die when you let them take lots of saves, something the IG excel at.

Really, it can be simple. Entice Shrike with a cheaper unit that he can walk through and in 5th ed rules, he will be stranded since he cannot consolidate into another unit. Then on your turn, you can shoot at him with whatever you want.
Or take an equally mobile unit and go hunting. Kor'sarro Khan with Command squad would do nicely since they have FNP.

One trick with Shrike is to stay away from the board edges with things he likes to attack. With an assault squad he can only certainly move 19" from an edge, up to 24". Put your armor on your flanks and place your infantry in the center with expendable units towards the outside. It is not ideal of course, but you can really limit choices this way.

Also, keeping the units you really want to live inside their transports until they are ready to rock works too.