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Green Blow Fly wrote:Well to me saying the term kills outright is not the same as instant death, to me that is a game of pure semantics. Honestly I don't remember the term 'kills outright' ever have been considered anything else than instant death until a day or so ago. If talks and walks like a duck there is a very good chance that it is an actual water fowl for all intensive purposes really.

G

It's actually not semantics at all. Page 26 of the rulebook defines "instant death" as an unsaved wound of strength double the model's toughness. There is nothing there that stipulates any other kind of instant death or defining instant death as "anything that causes death regardless of number of wounds", meaning that the default instant death is simply "death from S = double or more toughness."

However, BRB force weapons cause instant death, meaning they count as dealing a wound that has strength double the model's toughness. GK force weapons do not count as this kind of instant death, and have their own set of rules that causes death...instantly. That the two have a similar result is entirely superfluous**.

Those are the RAW. It's not semantics, it's simply the rules. GK force weapons don't count as causing instant death, so they simply don't. They kill models outright instead, in the same way that 4th ed ones did.

**edit: edited out "to the model." Lol Econ major, everything is a goddamned model to me <slow>

I don't agree and will just keep it at that. You want a force weapon that can instantly kill a model with eternal warrior and have found a couple of words to make your case. It looks like a loophole to me at best. I don't see how you can say one force weapon counts as a double strength kill and another just kills instantly - the end result is the same, and this is what you want in this particular case.

These exercises encourage players to closely examine the rules looking for certain phrasing they feel they can take advantage of, then place the blame on the developers for poorly worded rules. I have seen this too many times to count.

happy holidays!
G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Well to me saying the term kills outright is not the same as instant death, to me that is a game of pure semantics.

Your assertion above makes RAW meaningless in any context. There is no point to having any rules discussion with you if you truly believe the above.

I'll conceed the Force Weapon point but Landraiders do not get the new rules from the Space Marine Rulebook. So from memory the GK Landraiders Cruisader can move 12 inches and fire the Bolters but thats it. If they do have Machine Spirit it's 1 extra shot and it's at BS 2.

This however does not take away from the fact that there are only 2 troop choices. This alone make the list not so good. All I need to do is kill 10 guys and I can hold any objective and win. Even if your LR's are on 3 Objectives that 1 I'm holding uncontested wins.

Vs say a Nurgle list those flamers do nothing. Chainfists and Multi weapons are dangersous to LR's. Like my example of a Dread coming in next to one is dangers. Vs a Ven Dread it's even worst.

Wraithlords smashing into these squads would also be dangerours. On paper this list my look strong but I see the weaknesses of it.

Hell a Battlewagon with a death roller would make your day bad. Thats if Dakka hasn't said that using a death roller isn't a tank shock. (Which it is.)

I'm all about this list being good at 1500 points but it's not the end all. The low troop choice make it suspect.

That is not the case. It is more like 'if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck' then it is probably a duck. The nemesis FW is still a force weapon, albeit the rules read a little bit different, but it is still the same thing. I am sure this would have been FAQ'd it it were otherwise.

G

FW hasn't been FAQ'd, Machine spirit has been FAQ'd. We also get a Multi-Melta for free and Extra Armour cheap.

Anyway it makes perfect sense, NFW (wield by GrandMaster) isn't the same as a Force Weapon, it counts as Force Weapon but isn't the same.

Fluff-wise GK's and the Ordo Malleus have access to all Daemonhunting information, the Daemonicum (can't spell) and lots more held on Titan. There's probably information on Banishing Daemons by Force Weapon and other monstrotities. And how to successfully send something to the warp properly.

As for the list, drop the LR + Inquisitor.
8 GK's 2 Incinerator + Brother Captain Stern
8 GK's 2 Incinerator + GrandMaster
2 Stormtrooper squads (9) x2 Plasmagun

GM+Stern will probably gettin squished by Power fists by ahhh well. I really do like this list... hmmm.

I/ve been to multiple tourny's since 5th, and it has come up several times, all have ruled in favor of nemesis forces remouving all wounds on any model. One guy got mad and demanded explaination, judge said "eternal warriar, deamon special rule, ext makes you immune to instant death, as nowhere does nthe codex say nemisis force weapons cause instant death, those special rules do not protect you from nemesis weapons. As stated above "instant death" is a defined game term. Trying to apply that to another rule that sounds the same is silly. I do feel like GW's descision to have players play indavidual codexs as written maybe was not the best plan but as said above "you can't repair the rules for nemesis force weapons, and not repair assault cannon, storm sheild, smoke launchers, ext.

That is funny a friend of mine played in a tournament this weekend and he said the judges ruled against the NFW insta-killing enemy models with EW.

G

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:I'll conceed the Force Weapon point but Landraiders do not get the new rules from the Space Marine Rulebook. So from memory the GK Landraiders Cruisader can move 12 inches and fire the Bolters but thats it. If they do have Machine Spirit it's 1 extra shot and it's at BS 2.

Read the DH FAQ - it essentially gives the DH Land Raiders a Machine Spirit a la 5th Ed SM.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
This however does not take away from the fact that there are only 2 troop choices. This alone make the list not so good. All I need to do is kill 10 guys and I can hold any objective and win. Even if your LR's are on 3 Objectives that 1 I'm holding uncontested wins.

That is a weakness...but to get at those troops, you need to kill two AV14 vehicles. That's not easy to do, at all. Land Raider Spam isn't a no brainer list - against some armies, it's basically an auto-win, against other armies, it takes a fair amount of judgement to determine when you exit the transports.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Vs say a Nurgle list those flamers do nothing. Chainfists and Multi weapons are dangersous to LR's. Like my example of a Dread coming in next to one is dangers. Vs a Ven Dread it's even worst.

Nurgle takes it in the rear from Land Raider Spam. Daemons just get ground away, and Chaos doesn't have the long-range shooting once the oblits are killed (and obliterators are the primary target). Melta weapons are a worry...but pretty much only en masse. For each melta weapon, you're talking about a 43% chance or something like that of stopping the Land Raider.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
Wraithlords smashing into these squads would also be dangerours. On paper this list my look strong but I see the weaknesses of it.

You're not getting it...the squads don't exit the Land Raiders while there are dangers like Wraithlords or Dreadnoughts still walking around. Against most dangers, they stand off and shoot. Deep Striking Dreads are the biggest worry...and unless you're facing an all-drop pod SM force, the best counter is to simply start with everything in reserve. On the other hand, smoke launchers for 3 pts/raider might be a good idea as well.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
Hell a Battlewagon with a death roller would make your day bad. Thats if Dakka hasn't said that using a death roller isn't a tank shock. (Which it is.)

Yep, it's a tank shock. And the deathrolla gets an average of 3.5 hits. 1/2 of those will do nothing. 1/6 will glance, and effectively do nothing. only 1.16 will penetrate, and only 50% of those will stop the Raider.

Of course, this assumes that the battle wagon reaches the Land Raider's intact. They have the same movement, so its entirely possible for the Land Raiders to maneuver smartly and hit the battlewagon with multi-meltas at close range - which is likely to kill the battlewagon.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
I'm all about this list being good at 1500 points but it's not the end all. The low troop choice make it suspect.

The low troop choice makes it a challenge, in a way. As I said, the troops are there to mop up, not to get stuck in.

Green Blow Fly wrote:That is funny a friend of mine played in a tournament this weekend and he said the judges ruled against the NFW insta-killing enemy models with EW.

G

And we both know that tourney judges do not rules make.

You use the codex rules. Same thing with DA/BA smoke launchers. Our codex's say ours turn all pens into glances so that is what ours do, regardless of what the BGB says smoke launchers do (in fact there's an argument we get both effects).

I think we can all agree it's silly, but it is the rules. I for one would love for the DH/DA/BA/BT to all have consistent rules with the new SM codex but that's not the case and if you are going to say that the old codices must use the weak Storm Shields and Assault Cannons (in the DH case) then they also get to use the better Psychic hoods, NFW, and Smoke Grenades.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I do get it. Eldar drop your armour to 12 and put holes in your tanks. He then assaults your troops after killing your tank and cleans house.

I'm not an idiot and I have played a game or two.

Playing this game takes some skill but you only have 3 things and they all move together. So no big surprise on where you are going and what you need to do.

So really any army with mobility can take advantage of this. I can think of a good amount of Eldar lists that would own this list.

Believe it or not a Necron Army could own this list also. Having first turn a Necron army with luck could immobilize all 3 tanks. Then wait for you to try to grab objectives and smoke you.

If someone didn't bring high powered tank killers you have a great chance to win. If they did then it is a coin toss.

I also love math hammer. Isn't the Death Roller Str 10? So 1d6 hits at Str 10. So 3 is the average and then that leaves 1 doing nothing, 1 glancing and 1 pen'ing. With a little luck that could be 2 pen'ing. But again that is just wishful thinking that a death roller would get there.

2 troop choices is what makes this list weak. 3 LR's makes it strong. New missions require objectives. So having 2 troops choices makes this list suspect.

Nice try though.

GBF - The NFW still works as written in the Codex and the Psycic Hood has no range restrictions.

I suppose we can take a position that rules lawyering is okay, but I personally in no way, shape or form endorse this type of behaviour.

Can someone please be so kind as to quote the USR for Eternal Warrior?

G

GBF, I don't endorse rules lawyering either. Please re-read what I posted. Codex trumps Rulebook.

M<3Y: Death rollas don't work against vehicles. They work for tank shock, not ramming.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Page 74 BGB:

'Eternal Warrior
The model is immune to the effects of Instant Death' (note capitalisation of Instant Death, exactly copied from BGB. This makes it obvious it is a special rule).

Eternal Warrior protects from the special rule Instant Death, not from being 'killed instantly' or being 'slain outright' or anything else to that effect. Therefore Daemonhunter force weapons kill you even if you are an Eternal Warrior.

Yes Death Rollers work on vehicles. If you guys at Dakka say they can't that is some real good word screwing you are doing to not allow it.

GBF - The wording of instant kill and the wording of NFW are two different things. To make it easier you have an orange and a blood orange. They look alike but they are different.

How can you say kills outright does not instantly kill the model?

G

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:I do get it. Eldar drop your armour to 12 and put holes in your tanks. He then assaults your troops after killing your tank and cleans house.

I see very few bright lances out there on Eldar these days. Dark Eldar...well, DE trumps Land Raider Spam, unless you're Black Templars.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
I'm not an idiot and I have played a game or two.

Never said you were. Just said you didn't get it. Because its simply that tough to crack Land Raiders these days. Even if you can, its tough to do so reliably.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
Believe it or not a Necron Army could own this list also. Having first turn a Necron army with luck could immobilize all 3 tanks. Then wait for you to try to grab objectives and smoke you.

The key words there are "with luck".

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:I also love math hammer. Isn't the Death Roller Str 10? So 1d6 hits at Str 10. So 3 is the average and then that leaves 1 doing nothing, 1 glancing and 1 pen'ing. With a little luck that could be 2 pen'ing. But again that is just wishful thinking that a death roller would get there.

As I said, 3.5 hits is the average. 50% do nothing. 16.6% glance. 33% pen. Those are the numbers for S10 v AV14. Stopping the Raider is a 16% chance on a glance, and a 50% chance on a pen. So each hit has something like a 1 in 5 chance of stopping the Raider. Less if you're actually trying to kill the raider (11%, BTW).

Those are numbers I can live with.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:2 troop choices is what makes this list weak. 3 LR's makes it strong. New missions require objectives. So having 2 troops choices makes this list suspect.

Scott Simpson and I took a DH/WH combination to the Doubles Tournament at GT baltimore...with 2 total troops and 2 Land Raiders 1 squad of GKs, 1 squad of sisters. Won all of our games, even when the mission had 5 objectives to hold. We didn't lose a single Land Raider all day, and the only game we didn't get max battle on was when my LRC failed a dangerous terrain test that would have put it and the squad inside on top of the objective in a 2-objective mission, and prevented the opponents from getting close enough to contest.

At 1500, 2 troops gets the job done, if those troops are protected enough. Admittedly, your margin for error is close to zero, and you're hosed against Dark Eldar, but aside from that, you're pretty good to go.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Yes Death Rollers work on vehicles. If you guys at Dakka say they can't that is some real good word screwing you are doing to not allow it.

GBF - The wording of instant kill and the wording of NFW are two different things. To make it easier you have an orange and a blood orange. They look alike but they are different.

Do a search, this has been done to death. Ramming =/= Tank Shock. Coincidentally, this is also the answer you get if you email the new and improved rules boyz.

Green Blow Fly wrote:How can you say kills outright does not instantly kill the model?

G

Instant Death is different from instant death. Not everything that kills a model outright uses the ID rule. EW USR only protects against ID. Seriously, you are the only one arguing against this, let it go.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Green Blow Fly wrote:How can you say kills outright does not instantly kill the model?

G

We don't. But "Instant Death" is a game mechanic. And a really well defined one for GW. It's always capitalized, and its clearly defined. Weapons/powers that cause it always use that exact wording and capitalization: "Instant Death".

DH force weapons do not.

Hence, they do not cause "Instant Death".

Otherwise, GBF, please set forth your argument that models with Eternal Warrior that are hit with a SAG-12 are not removed as casualties.

I know I am being hard headed. I appreciate everyone who has bared with me. I predict this will be FAQd.

Anyways I am glad to see someone besides me believes the landraider is very viable. I am definitely going ahead in 2009 with my new SM army.

G

On another note I think SAG-12 is a red herring when it comes to the subject of kills outright and EW.

G

*faceslap*

No, it's an example of something that causes death instantly without using the ID rules.

You calling it a red herring is a red herring.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

* shrugs to avoid skull knock not officially recognized as face slap *

G

Okay I read the rules this evening... I am the kind of person that has to read it myself... I was definitely wrong. The rules for instant death even state that an attack that is 2*S => T ouright kills the model. So I have to eat some crow now.

G

Should I mention Wraith Weapons and insta kill?

Make a list and then we can rank them as based upon their threat levels.

G

Make sure you advanced register for Gorilla con though,

2 reasons.

#1 it's limited to 50 players and Ive heard from, read on forums of more then 50 people planning to attend.

#2 there is a contest that is only winnable if you pre-register. you get free new ork stuff!

wow, first off, that list looks VERY nasty, 3 landraiders HOLY that will hurt alot.
and slightly off topic, one of my friends will be VERY happy to hear that force weapons in the DH codex ignore eternal warrior, my daemon prince will no longer be safe

One thing to think about fluff wise when talking about the DH force weapon issue is that the weapons are not even called force weapon, but rather Nemesis force weapon. It's not a stretch to think that GKs would be equipped with the very best force weapons in the Imperium.