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Green Blow Fly wrote:What about the rule on page 92 that says you ignore other rules that keep units from entering the field of battle when held in reserve? An example is a BA rhino with OCE that rolls a 1 when coming in.

G

Page 94 says to ignore special rules of the unit which could stop it from moving. So, no bonus move for the BA's when arriving from off of the board because of the chance for mishap. But it doesn't say to ignore all rules which stop it from entering.

I don't buy into the destroyed thing.

I get that they have to move on as part of an outflank move and they legally can't but it's a big leap to say they are destroyed simply because the rule isn't covered properly.

Personally I think there's nothing that makes "they get destroyed" any more accurate than "they stay in reserves" or "they leap over their enemies' heads".

This is dumb and here is why. Apart from gaming the system you accomplish nothing but a fight over rules. This does nothing but attempts to circumvent rules that were clearly designed to allow a unit outflank.

The tactic is unsound and is wasteful at best. You essentially tie up hundreds of points of forces to prevent a handful of "infiltrators" from entering the board in turn 2 or later. While sacrificing those same points in an effort toward the victory conditions. In the real military you would be a tactical idiot.

In real life, the effect you are looking for is called a flank screen or flank guard. The purpose of which is to gain and maintain contact with the enemy on the flank (screen) or prevent the enemy form making contact with the main body (guard).

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:This is dumb and here is why. Apart from gaming the system you accomplish nothing but a fight over rules. This does nothing but attempts to circumvent rules that were clearly designed to allow a unit outflank.

The tactic is unsound and is wasteful at best. You essentially tie up hundreds of points of forces to prevent a handful of "infiltrators" from entering the board in turn 2 or later. While sacrificing those same points in an effort toward the victory conditions. In the real military you would be a tactical idiot.

In real life, the effect you are looking for is called a flank screen or flank guard. The purpose of which is to gain and maintain contact with the enemy on the flank (screen) or prevent the enemy form making contact with the main body (guard).

Well when orks start to overrun Kansas, I’ll start to worry about "real life" tactics.

They are destroyed.

The rule on page 94 doesn’t apply because it is very specific. It is very clear, it identifies that the unit in reserve must have the rule stopping it or directing its movement such as RAGE. The word "it" is referring to the unit in reserve wishing to enter the game. That 1 sentence on page 94 doesn’t make any mention of an ENEMY unit having an ability that would stop the reserve unit. An enemy special rule or power would still be in play. Like a rule that stated "an enemy unit cannot deploy within 12" OR cannot move within 12" on the turn they arrive from reserve".

Rules are part of the game...we must all play and live within the rules as written. If a player wants to create a force that he thinks has a BIG advantage utilizing a special rule and makes his force 1 dimensional to such an extreme as to forego other tactics in an attempt to bum rush his opponent on turn 2. Then I have just as much right to deploy ALL my infiltrators along the whole edge of the table to counter his tactic and to remove 33% of his possible entry points...since it is a dice roll that determines the side.

If he rolls the side I have blocked...they cannot enter and are destroyed. I can argue that "they got lost".

Now here is where it can get creative...depending on how I feel that day depends on if I want to work with my opponent on a solution. Spirit of the games stuff...GT "sportsmanship" stuff. OR if he can be quick thinking enough to pull a rabbit out of his hat like a vehicle that can TANK SHOCK it's way on as was stated earlier.

That is just the way things are and as Herm Edwards would say "that is why we play the game".

My $0.02
Happy New Year Everyone
Brass

You essentially tie up hundreds of points of forces to prevent a handful of "infiltrators" from entering the board in turn 2 or later.

There are armies where the entire army Outflanks.

And there are also armies that can lock out a board edge with less than 200 pts worth of guys.

So the fact that the unit is in reserve and has the special rule Outflank does not come under the effect of the rule on page 94? Sorry if I come across as being thick headed, just would like to make sure. I will read the rules this morning for self clarification.

G

Im also abit curious, what rule do you find that actually supports them beeing destroyed?

Okay I read the rule on page 94 and can see a case being made that since the outflanking unit does have a special rule which in this instance is preventing them from moving onto the board edge it could apply. They do have to move in a specific direction as well since you roll to see which table edge they enter upon.

G

Again it is an attempt to circumvent the rules, and should be treated as such. it isn't like the there is a 4' x 6' flat asteroid floating around in space... there is ground on every side of the boards edge.

The same as saying a unit is destroyed if they cannot come in the turn they are rolled for in reserves... There is no rule in place to support that.

G

Kallbrand wrote:Im also abit curious, what rule do you find that actually supports them beeing destroyed?

Page 108 my friends. Under the subject heading VICTORY POINTS subsection "Units destroyed".

"Units Falling back or off the battlefield count as DESTROYED."

Another example would be to read the Deep Strike section...although I agree this is not specific to the debate The precedent is being set a second time here when a unit that cannot enter the game or table is considered very BAD for the owning player. Under the MISHAP table a roll of a 5-6.

"If the unit is unlucky enough to roll this result in turn 5 or later and then the game ends while it is still in reserve, it sadly counts as destroyed."

The bottom line here is this...if the unit cannot enter play at the end of the game it is counted as destroyed. It has always been this way. You can hang around another hour to pretend that your playing through 5-6 turns...but sooner or later they are destroyed as long as the blocking line is in order. If the opponent can breach it in some way then all bets are off.

The argument at the table would revolve around the timing of when they become destroyed. Some would argue that it happens immediately, I personally would allow the player to keep his guys off table until he found a way to breach the blockade. But if all he had left were Outflanking troops and BOTH sides were blocked...I win per the rules for WIPE OUT!

Again...there are things in the rules that can circumvent this tactic. For example a unit outflanking on Jetbikes since they can move OVER models.

Blocking table edges IS a valid tactic.

Brass

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:Again it is an attempt to circumvent the rules, and should be treated as such. it isn't like the there is a 4' x 6' flat asteroid floating around in space... there is ground on every side of the boards edge.

In 40K the world is FLAT and in order to be a GOOD general you need to come to that realization. If you want to make a house rule that says it isn't, then that is perfectly acceptable. But to bring into any debate on these forums that "in real life" this or that would OR wouldn't happen. You'll be putting yourself through a lot of misery using logic.

Go to GW's website and open the 1st Errata/FAQ PDF on the rules. Read the last FAQ on page 1 that mentions the formation of the 40k world and who should know this.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2

Brass

The counts as destroyed rule only comes about after the last turn is finished.

G

Brasscorpion wrote:Page 108 my friends. Under the subject heading VICTORY POINTS subsection "Units destroyed".

"Units Falling back or off the battlefield count as DESTROYED."

Another example would be to read the Deep Strike section...although I agree this is not specific to the debate The precedent is being set a second time here when a unit that cannot enter the game or table is considered very BAD for the owning player. Under the MISHAP table a roll of a 5-6.

"If the unit is unlucky enough to roll this result in turn 5 or later and then the game ends while it is still in reserve, it sadly counts as destroyed."

The bottom line here is this...if the unit cannot enter play at the end of the game it is counted as destroyed. It has always been this way. You can hang around another hour to pretend that your playing through 5-6 turns...but sooner or later they are destroyed as long as the blocking line is in order. If the opponent can breach it in some way then all bets are off.

The argument at the table would revolve around the timing of when they become destroyed. Some would argue that it happens immediately, I personally would allow the player to keep his guys off table until he found a way to breach the blockade. But if all he had left were Outflanking troops and BOTH sides were blocked...I win per the rules for WIPE OUT!

Again...there are things in the rules that can circumvent this tactic. For example a unit outflanking on Jetbikes since they can move OVER models.

Blocking table edges IS a valid tactic.

Brass

That's all well and good if you keep it blocked till the end of the battle, but it in no way supports the theory other people are putting forward which suggests the unit is destroyed instantaneously and cannot come onto the table in future turns.

Green Blow Fly wrote:What about the rule on page 92 that says you ignore other rules that keep units from entering the field of battle when held in reserve? An example is a BA rhino with OCE that rolls a 1 when coming in.

G

You mean the one we've been discussing in the posts right above yours? The one that says that if a unit has a special rule that would prevent it from coming on, that rule is ignored. Notice that it only applies to the unit's own special rules, nothing else. Doesn't affect main rules like not being able to move within 1" of the enemy as that is not a unit special rule. So, as previously stated, nope, that rule has no effect on the question at hand.

Let's look at the other options that have been put forward.

1. Stay in Reserve. Nope, nothing in the rule says that units unable to outflank may be held or returned to reserve. There are a couple of instances where this can occur. Dark Eldar Warp Portal and Necron Monolith/Necron Warrior special Reserve rule come to mind. Check 'em out. Both have explicit statements allowing the units unable to come onto the table to be stacked or held in reserve. To repeat myself, no such statement exists in the outflank rules.

2. Mishap chart. Pure and simple, they're no deepstriking, so the chart has no effect.

3. Destroyed. No rules stating that the unit is destroyed, but this is the only option that has any sort of rules precedence, ie the unable to disembark from a destroyed vehicle within 1" of enemy models.
In addition, historical precedence (Space Puppy Scouts/ Operate Behind Enemy Lines). Way back when, GW said that if a SW Scout unit was unable to enter play due to a picket fence along the back edge, the scouts were destroyed. Fluff: Caught by rear area security, unable to reach the batlle, whatever.

I think you have missed my point as Outflank is a special rule for the unit held in reserve. If it were me I would go second and deploy these units in a normal fashion if I saw some guard player lining up all his units along the table edge.

G

I do see what you're saying but it's not the outflank rule that is preventing them from coming on, it is the main rules (ie cannot move within 1" of the enemy model). Same as if you had units in regular Reserve, and I managed to line up along your long edge. It's not the Reserve rule that is preventing you from coming on, it's the main rules.

And you wouldn't see them lined up along the edge (against me, at least) until AFTER you had declared outflank, since most of the units I use for it do so by Infiltrate.
For what it's worth, I do regularly warn opponents (even at GTs) about the possible consequences..........

I don't believe this is a RAW argument, because I don't believe there is a specific rules argument one way or the other for what happens. I will say this, if any rule comes up during a friendly game that me and my opponent cannot decide the outcome of, we usually come to an amiable conclusion.
Having said that I believe the way this should be played is that the unit that is outflanking should be held off until a time at which they can be brought on. Again that is not a RAW argument as I feel there is none and this topic should be moved to the 40k Proposed rules forum.

Daggermaw wrote:I don't believe this is a RAW argument, because I don't believe there is a specific rules argument one way or the other for what happens. I will say this, if any rule comes up during a friendly game that me and my opponent cannot decide the outcome of, we usually come to an amiable conclusion.
Having said that I believe the way this should be played is that the unit that is outflanking should be held off until a time at which they can be brought on. Again that is not a RAW argument as I feel there is none and this topic should be moved to the 40k Proposed rules forum.

Spot on Daggermaw.

Remember that the 1st and most important rule to 40k is to have a fun and friendly game. This interpretation is in the spirit of that rule.

As always, you and your opponent can agree to play it in any fashion you desire. Heck, you can change rules you don't like if you want to. However, IMO, the unit being destroyed is the answer that comes closest to following given rules. Also, it was the answer for the US GTs this past year. And it wasn't an off-the-cuff answer, it was debated and decided on prior to the first US GT, along with Star Engine Ramming (no) and several other issues taht we thought needed to be covered.

Hey, this is such a cool tactic. you could get mass of units that can infiltrate and then use them to not only block the two flanks but also block the opponent own table side! Wow you would be the coolest 4x6 general in all the lands!
We would rename you army "The lords of pwngage" and they would rule!

Munchkins!

They cannot move onto the table as much because they have Outflank in regards to not being able to move 1" onto the table away from enemy units. They would not be in that situation except for the special rule so I give it preference. There are no rules currently that adequately handle this type of situation. I posted here not too long ago about using tank shock to force an enemy unit to move in such a way as they could not maintain the proper separating distance from enemy units and the conclusion was the same. I would also be careful about using non official rulings from previous editions of the game. You don't see people here using rules from 2nd editions to make a point.

G

Centurian99 wrote:Destroyed.

yes if there is absolutely no place for them to go, I find it hard to believe that your opp. had an entire 4 foot board edge filled to the last inch with models. It woud take at least a 4k point hoard army to maybe do that, maybe.

Ive never seen that even in 40000 point Apoc games

Except that 16 models with 25 mm bases is enough.
You can block both edges with 4 units of guard light infantry. That's 280 points.

Are we still discussing this?

Hee.

As always, you and your opponent can agree to play it in any fashion you desire. Heck, you can change rules you don't like if you want to. However, IMO, the unit being destroyed is the answer that comes closest to following given rules. Also, it was the answer for the US GTs this past year. And it wasn't an off-the-cuff answer, it was debated and decided on prior to the first US GT, along with Star Engine Ramming (no) and several other issues taht we thought needed to be covered.

I could see where one might like to think that's the answer, because it would be a pretty cool trick to pull on someone. But the fact is the rules support neither decision. There are few instances in the rules where a unit is outright destroyed without even rolling a dice and this isn't one of them.
As far as the GT's and any other tournaments are concerned and whatever rules they play, those are not RAW, they are an interpretation of rules that need clarifying. Much as some times the Supreme Court rules on constitutional issues that are RAW vs RAI. But here in this forum which is strictly RAW, this question cannot be answered, and again I say this should be moved to 40k proposed rules.

Don Mondo: I am intrigued that you admit there is no clear answer. Yet you are willing to accept old SW rules as a precedence, but toss out the web way portal and Monolith as poor precedence.


What we have are rules that run against each other.

The models *must* be brought on
The models *can't* come within 1"

One of those rules must be broken; they can't both be used.
As The Don points out, there is nothing in the rules that supports
1)keeping them in reserve, or
2using the mishap table.
But there is also nothing in the rules that supports
3) declaring them dead (before the end of the game), or
4)allow them to come in on a different table edge, or
5) allow them to 'skip over' the blocking units


There is precedence for keeping them in reserve, but it has specific language to cover that.
The precedence for destroying units coming out of transports, however, *also* has specific wording stating that.


The rules say we must do two things, that can't *both* be done. I see no reason to assume that one side gets destroyed. I see nothing in the rules that implies that over any other option.

Note, when you pivot a vehicle (not just a tank), it moves enemy infantry out of the way, without tank shocking. Perhaps Outflanking units can move enemy units out of the way. There is precedence in the rules for that.

Yep, no clear rules, absoutuely. So what has GW said in similar circumstances, ie the SW Scouts (which also had no clear answer in the rules)? Is that not a good enough reason to accept it, since it's the most similar circumstance of all those mentioned?
Anyways, I realize I'm not going to change people's minds, and mine isn't going to be changed. We've all laid out our POV so the OP has knowledge of the different viewpoints. And some are starting to take it a little personally, soooo.............. Moving on.

Very good to see us working togehter for consensus on a tough topic.

G