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GBF I think almost everyone who is responding is talking about the regular Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Blood Angels. We can all agree that it makes more sense for Blood Angel players to take Power Fists, than it does for regular Space Marine players.

Also, I think Deadshane1's examples to better invest those points (for regular Space Marines) are a pretty good point. Because after all, that is what building an optimal army list is all about, spending your points in the best way you can. If you can make a lot of examples in regards to other items, than those items probably don't fit in your optimal list, which is obviously different for every player nobody plays the same way.

Therefore I think players should experiment with their Tactical Squads themselves to find out what their most efficient Tactical Squad is. A lot of examples have been already given in this thread, so I think you should just playtest the ones you like.

My personal favorite Tactical Squad is a 10 man squad with Multi-Melta, Flamer, Rhino and if points allow it, a Combi-Flamer. I use Vulkan He'Stan as my HQ choice though, so you might want to consider that before switching a Missile Launcher for a Multi-Melta.

I am not in disagreement with what you have said AM. Remember that a lot of people who play BA & DA run their armies similar to vanilla Space Marines.

Q:
Can vanilla sergeants take a thunder hammer?

G

A: No. Sadly.

Tactical squads fill the roles you need it to, if your laking some lascannons, take lascannons.. if your lacking heavy anti-infantry, take some plasma/combi plasma guns.. horde, flamers & frag rockets. etc etc

If you do have an army thats got some strong CC elements itll work well if you give those tac squads pfists as they will either be supporting or be supported by other elements.

Likewise, having tactical marines charge into combat which doesnt end swiftly could easily deny those few sternguard squads you have opening up. Yes they can charge in too but thats really not the idea 19/20.

People have been right in thier own assesements but making counter over-ridding statements is a tad fail as its all respective of the entire army.

I think part of the problem is that Tactical squads really do form "jack of all trades, master of none" squads. They can be equipped to do anything in a pinch, but they're not great at it.

Anti-infantry? HB Devs, Pred Destructors, even landspeeders. Anti-tank? Las/ML Devs, multi-melta dreads and speeders and attack bikes. Heavy infantry? Vindicators, PC Devs, even sniper scouts. Assault falls to ATermies and ASquads as well as Command Squads. Durability is for dreads, termies, and Land Raiders. Even when it comes to multi-purpose, Sternguard have them beat.

The key problem is that for any one thing you might want a tac squad to do, the SM army list has a unit that is more suited to doing that thing. For tournament lists that like to focus on doing one thing well, that leaves the Tac squad floundering.

So what do Tac squads give SM players? The primary thing they give is a Scoring unit (and of course, using one of the Troops choices). The ability to hold objectives is obviously important in 5e. The second thing they give is multiple bolters, typically 7-8. By itself, the bolter is not a ground-breaking weapon. It's good against light infantry mostly. The third thing they give is cheap special and heavy weapons. This is where you need to decide what role to give them. They can fill in at a pinch for other units in the army, though they will not be as good as any dedicated unit. The fourth thing they give is access to transport units. This can also help fill in deficiencies in the army, as well as give them mobility to claim far objectives.

The last thing they give is the sergeant's wargear/weaponry. Typically, he doesn't really help the tactical squad fill in for particular roles, but improves the squad itself. So, once you know exactly how the squad plans to contribute, you can equip him accordingly. If they're sitting back and hunting tanks, no gear is needed. If they're zooming up to take on tanks and such, a powerfist is a good idea. If they're going after other MEQ, then a power weapon is a decent compromise. I tend to see combiweapons as point-fillers, but if you need that second melta or flamer shot for the unit style then it may be something to consider.

Essentially, Tac squads need to supplement the rest of your army. Use them to fill in deficiencies, and support your harder hitting elements that will batter the enemy senseless so the Tac squads can come along and clean up.

Instead of power fists, I prefer to use those points on scout snipers.

More bodies on the table, functions a lot better than PF's against MC's, DP's, etc.
If you are worrying about vehicles, a PF in a tac squad isn't the answer either.

In my experience locally, power fists in tac squads are now no longer compulsory, but obsolete.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's better to charge with your tactical squad than be charged.

Better to save those points for more useful things than a CC weapon in a unit that sucks in CC in the first place.

Heres a list of things you can get for 50 pts that can potentially be more useful than two power fists.

Heavy Bolter Attack biker (55pts for a MM one) {DEAD IN ONE SHOT, an extra KP for enemy}
Speeder {DEAD IN ONE SHOT, an extra KP for enemy}
Techmarine to bolster some terrain for your many Tac squads to sit in. {Costs as much as giving two tac squads powerfists. Only gets 1 powerfist attack on defense or charge compared to the 4 powerfist attacks on defense and 6 on charge for the powerfist tacticals. An extra KP for enemy.}
Razorback with pintle SB {DEAD IN ONE SHOT, an extra KP for enemy}
Land Speeder Storm {DEAD IN ONE SHOT, an extra KP for enemy}
Sargeant Tellion {First valid alternative to me. It is more effective at anti-champ tactics than a powerfist, but it won't be bringing down the dreadnaughts and tanks and or insta-killing Nobz}
Ten points shy of a whole predator {An unloaded predator with no firepower, just an unlinked autocannon and kill point for the enemy. A triple lascannon pred on the other hand costs 165 points, as much as 6.6 powerfist upgrades, which aren't as easy to target as a predator.}


Doenst sound that smart to liberally pass around P.fist's anymore now does it?

It still does, if you have points that aren't spent on extremely important things. None of the things you listed above are important things.

Hellfury wrote:
In my experience locally, power fists in tac squads are now no longer compulsory, but obsolete.

G

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Fists are less essential now. Frankly, I've never regretted spending points on a fist: killing a terminator or destroying a vehicle is enough to make me glad I had the fist. There are still too many times you run into a squad that's not a dedicated assault squad that can outshoot a 5 man combat squad to really ignore the possiblity of charging with marines. They also threaten most ICs that come into range with instant death.

that all said, If you're going tactical heavy, four fists comes up to 100 points, which is enough to buy an actual unit, such as a typhoon or a librarian. Dropping a fist is almost enough to upgun a razorback to assault cannons.

I think that for truly high level gamers, fists are probalby less necessary, but in most environments they're still very viable, and you have to apply the old rule that as countercharge, any unit they assualt will already be softened up by the rest of your shooting. Having a fist can make a big difference when assaulting the last two terminators or the last four plague marines.

Polonius my dear old friend (reference to Steely Dan song) you have hitt the proverbial head of the nail with an atomic pile driver.

I like to come across as understated.

G

Meltagun, Powerfist and a Rhino.

You can not really deny the utility of a couple Powerfists or even just one. Only exception is when you are bringing TH/ SS Termies specifically. Which you probably should, mind you.

So says I.



I also like Plasmacannons but Tac squads are also needed to take objectives. That and Scouts can fill a shooty role as well. But they definately put punch in a shooty list and you only have to shoot the thing once, really.

Lascannons and Multimeltas add insurance. But so does Meltagun/ Powerfist. Plasmaguns are a bit better not that they ignore FNP but I still like the look and feel of Meltaguns.

I have boiled my BA tactical squads down to ten Marines with a power fist and meltagun. They all ride in rhinos with OCE. The boost from Dante and Corbulo make them stone faced killers. I see 5e as a very dynamic game. The introduction of objectives means that you can throw away non scoring units since victory points are dead and gone. I love it and it has made the game a lot more exciting to say the very least. A lot of the TOs where I live have decided not to play games based on KPs unless it comes down to a tie breaker. My style of play is to kill kill kill the enemy. It is a good method for me. The tactical squads enhanced by Dante and Corbulo make them worth more than the points you take for fielding them. This is commonly referred to as a force multiplier. The SM vanilla special characters are also force multipliers but unfortunately it seems a lot of gamers want to use this to boost their elite units. You can easily build a vanilla army with a solid staple of scoring units that are enhanced by their special characters. Vulkan is great for a squad of tactical Marines running with a meltagun, multi melts and combi melta. This is one of the few units I would still consider running In a drop pod. Of course the sergeant would also be equipped with a power fist to help absorb the inevitable counter charge.

G

But they get so hot... Teh plasmaguns, I mean.

So does my co workers when I belch out loud. Hey shat does happen.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:This is commonly referred to as a force multiplier. The SM vanilla special characters are also force multipliers but unfortunately it seems a lot of gamers want to use this to boost their elite units. You can easily build a vanilla army with a solid staple of scoring units that are enhanced by their special characters. Vulkan is great for a squad of tactical Marines running with a meltagun, multi melts and combi melta. This is one of the few units I would still consider running In a drop pod. Of course the sergeant would also be equipped with a power fist to help absorb the inevitable counter charge.

G

Hence, why Pedro will be the Eldrad of the marines once people quit trying all the new toys. I think the PF debate boils down to if you are relying on tactics to get you out of combat (which you shouldn't). Pedro makes PFs worth it and multiplies the already good Sternguard.

Pedro for the win.

Its really an operational question. Are your 16 point troops going to sit there and shoot like a glorified BS4 S4 weaponed guardsman. Or will you employ your limited combat power as tactical need dictates?

Lets break down combat into three distinct category's:

Shooting
Deliberate assault
Counter assault

Fists give your 16 point models the extra level of lethality to compete in all three combat scenarios. Fists literally put the 'tactical' into tac squads.

The concept of 'just take a dedicated CC squad' works fine in a vacuum. However, just like in real life combat power is limited in 40k. You cant just dial up the Chapter Master and ask him to drop a fresh termie unit because your existing dedicated CC units are committed elsewhere.
With assault termies being the only decent CC unit marines can take (and sucking balls without transport). Fielding multiple termies + transports units because your tac squads cant look after themselves in CC is imo a very poor use of that limited pool of combat power.

The whole point is that Tac squads really shouldn't be in combat in most cases. If you're going to have a significant advantage in a combat, ie charging Tau or Guard, then being in combat is good, usually as your opponent has better shooting than you. Here powerfists are nearly a waste anyway, as you should be crushing them with or without the fist.

If you're facing a particularly tough unit or monster, powerfists are limited in their use but better than anything else. That still doesn't make them taking always if you have combat tactics. Against these foes, aside from maneuvering to avoid such combats in the first place, the best thing will usually be to try fall back and shoot it next turn. A powerfist here is almost a crutch for players with poor movement/deployment skills.

If you're facing off against equals in combat, then a powerfist can be useful, though I suspect that a power weapon may be at least as useful. Power fists do give you a slight edge, especially if the opponent does not have one, but I rarely if ever find myself in this situation.

If your troops are going out and absolutely have to hold an objective, perhaps one in the opponent's deployment zone, then I can see taking a powerfist, because you can't fall back (or at least it's usually not advantageous). The powerfist nominally gives them some attacks that can do damage, though since they'll usually be charged and hit on 4s against any opponent, that's probably no more than 1 wound, less if they have an invulnerable save. Worth 25 points? Maybe, but it's very situational.

@GBF - this conversation applies only to Codex Marines Tac squads. BA squads are different, especially with their characters boosting.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Hellfury wrote:
In my experience locally, power fists in tac squads are now no longer compulsory, but obsolete.

G

Is the emote-speek for "die in a fire?

Polonius wrote:I think that for truly high level gamers, fists are probalby less necessary, but in most environments they're still very viable, and you have to apply the old rule that as countercharge, any unit they assualt will already be softened up by the rest of your shooting. Having a fist can make a big difference when assaulting the last two terminators or the last four plague marines.

I suppose PF has a better chance than the simple plebian swinging a bolt gun.
But as a player of terminator heavy armies, I still cant shake my everlasting fear of the cheap shot.
You know, massed attacks that a termie should easily save against, but sadly, they are bound to lose a few wounds. In a word, attrition.

I really cant help but fear a lot of low str attacks over 2 maybe 3 PF attacks that may or may not hit.

Which is why I honestly think that the PF's no longer shine as brightly.
Its now the time for the poor proletariat to have his fun, instead of the bourgeoisie and his expensive gear.

Guess it really comes down to how people wish to run their lists. If all you want out of a troop unit is an objective holder Scouts with cloaks would more than likely a better choice. Spend the extra points on supporting attack bikes or dakka preds. I play pretty aggressive, if the objectives i want are in his deployment zone/half of the table my tac squads are at the front with the main assault element(s) directly influencing the fight. Fists imo are a no-brainer when employed in this fashion.

FWIW I suspect one of the main factors in why im so pro fists is that we pretty much only play at 1500 down here. Taking a tac squad to sit back with their thumbs up their asses is simply not an option for me at this point level, I want maximum utility out of every single unit. A fist essentially gives me another strong CC able unit (not awesome.. strong) that also does everything else a tac squad can do. 25 points for complete utility is a good investment from my pov!