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Against anything guardsmen can't kill themselves, ogryns lose. Sure they can take a lot of hits, but they probably are not causing as many as they take, see LD7. If you want them to stay you have to buy them a commissar, and thats only 5 ogryn in a chimera.

But it can be worse than that. Unlike a speed bump guard squad they might stay and fight a unit for too long, meaning you can't shoot what they are engaged with.
I would agree that they can be a better tarpit than GK terminators with all the power weapons around, but they still are less killy than RR, and more expensive than guardsmen for a speed bump.

"-MC's even have to sit up and take notice, ESPECIALLY if the "Bring it down" order applies to HtH attacks."
I had not thought of this, and its a really cool idea. However since they can't take a vox, they have to be withing 12" of the CHQ or 6" of a PHQ.

A minimum size squad or the ogryn character with FNP might have uses, but I don't see a point in maxing them out.

Ogyrn fit the background much better than GKT. They are pricy but somewhat versatile. I think their Achilles heel is their low leadership... If they need a comissar that is more points.

Rough riders were never any good because a smart opponent would shoot them all down before they ever got off a charge... Not hard to do either.

G

How would Ogryns do against bugs?

focusedfire wrote:How would Ogryns do against bugs?

I'd guess they'd do pretty darn well against the majority of bugs, especially Bow Fly's.

Against nids, anything tooled up for CC will eat them alive (pun intended) and anything not intended is most likely just a tarpit to allow their other units to eat you alive.

I don't play nidz so any thought in that direction is utterly futile.

G

I cease to care if they will be effective. I bought em', I'll use em... against tau.

@Kungfu- Nice job on the paint. Do you have any other stuff in the gallery? Would love to see if you do.

Off-topicSorry for the double post but just checked the gallery.

Kungfu, I really like the city grey theme. Love the stealth mode Russ


On-topic-I will admit that I'm in the camp of wishing the Ogryn were a little cheaper

A buddy of mine did some math on various bugs vs. Ogryns. I don't remember the full numbers, but the basic results were:

Genestealers eat the Ogryn.
Ogryn stand up to little bugs really well.
Ogryn can get the odd wound on monstrous creatures, and can survive the counter attack reasonably well.

Biophysic wrote:A buddy of mine did some math on various bugs vs. Ogryns. I don't remember the full numbers, but the basic results were:

Genestealers eat the Ogryn.
Ogryn stand up to little bugs really well.
Ogryn can get the odd wound on monstrous creatures, and can survive the counter attack reasonably well.

Unless it's a S10 Carnifex. Or a tyrant with Implant attack. Or tyrant with Guard, with the lash whips to remove many Ogryn attacks.

Too many caveats. :(

I would love to include some Ogryns in my 2000pt but not 1500pt guard army, mainly because I've come up with an interesting conversion I'm just drying to feature in my army. The biggest problem is figuring out where is best to put them.

Should I put 6 of them in a Chimera (it would be the only transport vehcile in the army) and go on the offensive, surely that much muscle would throw some firepower away from my troops. Or maybe take 2 squads of 3 to put in my main firebase and use them to counter charge assault units and hold them up while my other units get clear?

So if took Ogryns where do you think they'd be most effective?

Also its not the low save or high cost that scares me it's the low leadership one lost combat could mean a 250pts unit mowed down!

Proiteus wrote:I would love to include some Ogryns in my 2000pt but not 1500pt guard army, mainly because I've come up with an interesting conversion I'm just drying to feature in my army. The biggest problem is figuring out where is best to put them.

Should I put 6 of them in a Chimera (it would be the only transport vehcile in the army) and go on the offensive, surely that much muscle would throw some firepower away from my troops. Or maybe take 2 squads of 3 to put in my main firebase and use them to counter charge assault units and hold them up while my other units get clear?

So if took Ogryns where do you think they'd be most effective?

Also its not the low save or high cost that scares me it's the low leadership one lost combat could mean a 250pts unit mowed down!

Its a Raw LD6-7 on combats reguardless of the combat results (assuming one model made it out). Can the regimental standard be used to allow a re-roll to a combat rez check? My morale rules are a bit rusty.

In a chimera you remove the poor save issue but you also remove thier awesome toughness although the tank can move 6" and youll get a good chunk of str 5 shots pouring out.
Infront of a chimera (with camo netting) , I think, is where these guys will shine. Itll take a decent amount of anti-troop shooting to remove the orgyns & while they are there the tank gets a decent 3+ cover save! Its a fair amount of points & may work better with tank squadrens. I dunno.

210 = 40 sparely equipped guard. Or 5 orgyrns. But then guard wont give a chimera a cover save. (50%)

The only reason to take them is for the "oh wow, Ogyrns " reaction.


In virtually any situation you would be better with a large unit of guardsmen + Commissar w/ a powerweapon.

Razerous wrote:

Proiteus wrote:I would love to include some Ogryns in my 2000pt but not 1500pt guard army, mainly because I've come up with an interesting conversion I'm just drying to feature in my army. The biggest problem is figuring out where is best to put them.

Should I put 6 of them in a Chimera (it would be the only transport vehcile in the army) and go on the offensive, surely that much muscle would throw some firepower away from my troops. Or maybe take 2 squads of 3 to put in my main firebase and use them to counter charge assault units and hold them up while my other units get clear?

So if took Ogryns where do you think they'd be most effective?

Also its not the low save or high cost that scares me it's the low leadership one lost combat could mean a 250pts unit mowed down!

Its a Raw LD6-7 on combats reguardless of the combat results (assuming one model made it out). Can the regimental standard be used to allow a re-roll to a combat rez check? My morale rules are a bit rusty.

In a chimera you remove the poor save issue but you also remove thier awesome toughness although the tank can move 6" and youll get a good chunk of str 5 shots pouring out.
Infront of a chimera (with camo netting) , I think, is where these guys will shine. Itll take a decent amount of anti-troop shooting to remove the orgyns & while they are there the tank gets a decent 3+ cover save! Its a fair amount of points & may work better with tank squadrens. I dunno.

210 = 40 sparely equipped guard. Or 5 orgyrns. But then guard wont give a chimera a cover save. (50%)

You honestly want to spend that many points to screen a chimera?!

Just buy a AV12 Sentinel, costs a lot less.

"Just buy a AV12 Sentinel, costs a lot less. "

several sentinels cost alot less!

alarmingrick wrote:"Just buy a AV12 Sentinel, costs a lot less. "

several sentinels cost alot less!

But most players will have those FA slots already taken up with rough riders, scout sentinels or hellhound/Chem Dogs.

Proiteus wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:"Just buy a AV12 Sentinel, costs a lot less. "

several sentinels cost alot less!

But most players will have those FA slots already taken up with rough riders, scout sentinels or hellhound/Chem Dogs.

Really?

Rough Riders... meh they're ok.

Scout Sentinels, still weak.

Hellhounds/Dogs: Expensive and risky.

Now Vendettas/Valks. That something that will eat up Fast attack slots. But unless you are Mr. Money Bags, getting 3 Valk kits is going to take some time

55pts for a AV12 sentinel that can screen armor and tie up things in CC? It's not that bad of a deal (better than Ogyrns).

But you know what the best way to screen a Chimera is?

ANOTHER CHIMERA!

BoxANT wrote:
Now Vendettas/Valks. That something that will eat up Fast attack slots. But unless you are Mr. Money Bags, getting 3 Valk kits is going to take some time

Since when has this stopped anyone? People buy Reaver titans, you think $180 in Valkes is going to stop anyone?

Redbeard wrote:

BoxANT wrote:
Now Vendettas/Valks. That something that will eat up Fast attack slots. But unless you are Mr. Money Bags, getting 3 Valk kits is going to take some time

Since when has this stopped anyone? People buy Reaver titans, you think $180 in Valkes is going to stop anyone?

That would be the aformentioned Mr. Moneybags.

There is a reason why the new expensive kit is so effectively points costed and 3 to a slot.

It's called Greed

BoxANT wrote:[As for Rough Riders, is the rumor that they took the Krak Grenades off their Lances and put them in their pockets (gain Krak Grenades, but Lances no longer ignore armor), then really IG has no effective "killy CC" unit. Perhaps that's ok, after all, we're IG, we shoot stuff.

Rough riders still have S5 Power Weapons on the charge and are, frankly, the absolute best counter assault guard has for the points. All guard wants to do is keep people away from their guns. Rough Riders do this very, very well and at six points a model for the first five and 10 points a model for the next five, they were born to be sacrificed. This is from the official new codex which is readily available in previews right now.

Ogryns and Storm Troopers having similar points costs to Terminators and Marines respectively are one of the few dark spots in an excellently written codex. Their points cost are so ridiculously out of wack with what they can do in the codex, and how effective similarly priced units cost in other codexes (an Ogryn is going to cost almost the same as a terminator with a storm shield?!?!?!!?), that their points costs boarder on lunacy. The cost of Ogryns alone makes them utterly worthless, notwithstanding the host of valid points already made in this thread. You can have four squads of five Rough Riders for the cost of one five man Ogryn unit. Five Ogryns are going to protect your gun lines more than 20 Rough Riders?

Boxant wrote:
"But you know what the best way to screen a Chimera is?

ANOTHER CHIMERA! "

you sir, are the winner! you spend as much as you do on the Sentinel, but double the heavy weapons, can carry a squad and don't lose a FA slot to boot!! not to mention you can get 2 Chimeras for a cheaper point total than you can get 3 Ogryns! sorry, but i don't see me ever feilding the big smelly brutes.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:

BoxANT wrote:[As for Rough Riders, is the rumor that they took the Krak Grenades off their Lances and put them in their pockets (gain Krak Grenades, but Lances no longer ignore armor), then really IG has no effective "killy CC" unit. Perhaps that's ok, after all, we're IG, we shoot stuff.

Rough riders still have S5 Power Weapons on the charge and are, frankly, the absolute best counter assault guard has for the points. All guard wants to do is keep people away from their guns. Rough Riders do this very, very well and at six points a model for the first five and 10 points a model for the next five, they were born to be sacrificed. This is from the official new codex which is readily available in previews right now.

Ogryns and Storm Troopers having similar points costs to Terminators and Marines respectively are one of the few dark spots in an excellently written codex. Their points cost are so ridiculously out of wack with what they can do in the codex, and how effective similarly priced units cost in other codexes (an Ogryn is going to cost almost the same as a terminator with a storm shield?!?!?!!?), that their points costs boarder on lunacy. The cost of Ogryns alone makes them utterly worthless, notwithstanding the host of valid points already made in this thread. You can have four squads of five Rough Riders for the cost of one five man Ogryn unit. Five Ogryns are going to protect your gun lines more than 20 Rough Riders?

Well, in my defense, that quote was from March 21st, when we didn't know if RR did have Powerweapons on the charge


Are RR IG's best CC unit? Of course, but that isn't saying a whole lot. It's like being the tallest dwarf.

Can RR be effective? Yes, of course. A squad of 10 will run you about 105pts and wil kill ~112pts of Marines on the charge, even better if they hit a juicy target.

But again, they're competing for Valk/Vend slots.

Hell, you might even be better off taking Marbo. He's a 1 shot demo charge, an elite choice, rather accurate, and cheaper.

Mmmmm.....I can use my Sly Marbo fig again!!! woohoo!!!!