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Death By Monkeys wrote:@tomguycot - What do you want your CCS to do? If you're going tank hunting with it, you've got the meltas, but they'll need to be mobile, so you won't be able to use the Master of Ordnance's ability. If you keep them in the backfield for his utility (and also to use the Lascannon), then you're losing out on the utility of the meltas. I'd say go one way or the other. If they're going to be in the backfield, then at least give them plasma guns to give them more range. If they're tank hunters, drop the Advisors and add another melta. What will the job of the PCS be? It's only got one flamer but a vox, so you obviously want it to be able to benefit from orders. What are you thinking about doing with it? Will the Chimera be donated to a SWS? I'm not convinced about the Lascannons in the Vet Squads w/ the Chimeras, but hey, a BS4 Lascannon shot is a BS4 Lascannon shot. Still, that's 45 points that you could free up to use elsewhere. I'm assuming that you plan on using the Valks with the SWSs?

The thought behind the Command Squad is that it is basically one more veteran squad. It would be armed identically but I put the list together before we got the revelation that Voxs would not extend past the command squad's normal 12" radius. I had wanted the "blob" squad to be able to benefit from their orders even if they were off meltagunning things but now that that isn't an option the vox may turn into another melta gun. The jury is still out on the advisers. I know that I want master of the fleet to keep enemy reserves off the board and to mitigate the damage that outflankers can do but I am not sure on the second adviser (or if I even want a second one). If the squad is going to spend the first two to three turn sitting still shooting the lascannon the master of ordnance guy could be good but if the squad is going to be on the move more often then the guy that helps my own reserves might be better for dawn of war missions and for when I choose to outflank with the valkyries. Or ...perhaps I'd be better served with 30 more points worth of guns and "stuff".

Basically the theory behind the vets and the command squad is to be able to either hang back and take pot shots at things with BS 4 lascannons or intercept transports (including landraiders) mid table when the situation calls for it. I had thought about plasma guns but I am not impressed with them at all in 5th ed. There is a lot more cover and also a lot more horde type non-MEQ armies floating around. Then factor in that they cost 15 points now and I am really unimpressed with plasma in this book.

The platoon command squad is mandatory since I want to run an infantry platoon and frankly I haven't entirely decided what I want to do with it. Now that the vox rule has been clarified I will be dropping it since now it seems that only the squad receiving the orders has to have one. The theory had been that the PCS would babysit the infantry platoon "blob" and likely give it the "Bring it Down" order every turn and then once something got close (such as outflankers) it could come in with the flamer. I will be reexamining what I do with this unit now that more info on the vox has come out.

As for the SWS the idea is, as you said, to put them in Valkyries and then hunt AV 14 through either outflanking our scout moves depending on the situation.

tomguycot wrote:The theory had been that the PCS would babysit the infantry platoon "blob" and likely give it the "Bring it Down" order every turn and then once something got close (such as outflankers) it could come in with the flamer. I will be reexamining what I do with this unit now that more info on the vox has come out.

The only problem with this is that only CCSs get "Bring it Down!" - PCSs get "FRFSRF!", "Move, Move, Move!", and "Incoming!"

JB wrote: backslide, you are definitely trying some options that are counter-intuitive for many IG players. Do you get much use out of the PF in your CCS? Do your troop choices have enough strength to seize or hold objectives? Many folks are steering away from HWS but you're embracing them. I'm interested in the Primaris Psyker. You'll have to tell us how well he works out. Which unit will he join?

well I should drop the command squads plas down to meltas maybe get a medic and make it a counter attack squad, having somingthing kinda good in H2H will be a help

have found that this is enough to hold, and take objectives, more so now that HWS are actually scoring

HWS, I think they will still be viable even if they are more vulnerable, as they are cheaper, more so for me as I have always used Mech so my AT squad had to have a chimera, need more AT really, 6 auto cannons for 150 points? how can I say no?

Primaris Psyker, 2D6 S6? whats not to like BS4 even, range is 24 I think its like a chimera on steriods, I find win games due to the sheer number of high strength shots I put out AP or not

Death By Monkeys wrote:

The only problem with this is that only CCSs get "Bring it Down!" - PCSs get "FRFSRF!", "Move, Move, Move!", and "Incoming!"

Well crap, I guess he will have to load up on meltas and die for the emperor in a blaze of glory every game because other than that I don't see too much use for him now that there's no leadership bubble either. So really I suppose his use will be similar to what I use him for now just minus the need to position him near units so that they can use his leadership until the time for glorious death comes.

tomguycot wrote:Well crap, I guess he will have to load up on meltas and die for the emperor in a blaze of glory every game because other than that I don't see too much use for him now that there's no leadership bubble either. So really I suppose his use will be similar to what I use him for now just minus the need to position him near units so that they can use his leadership until the time for glorious death comes.

Pretty much, yeah. I'm not convinced how useful FRFSRF! will be, but Move, Move, Move! and Incoming! could certainly be useful in some situations, though.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
@JB - I think you've got a pretty good list, but I think that you and I probably have fundamental differences of opinion on the concept of mixing special weapons in squads. I'm of the school of thought that if you can take more than one special weapon that they should all be the same. However, I also know that some subscribe to the "Swiss Army Knife" approach. Not my cup of tea, but I understand the logic behind it.

The good news is that it's easy to switch them around from squad to squad so that I can experiment with either option. The constraint for me is a total number of plasma guns equal to the number of melta guns because of the way GW packages them. At $15 for two special weapons (1 plas/1 melta), I won't buy any extras. I only have 5/5 in my current list and will have to acquire the other 6/6 that I need for this veteran mech list. I also think I need to bump the psyker squad up to 8 psykers so that I can get ID on T4 troops. That will make Soulstorm more deadly.

Tomguycot,

I've finally nailed down my starting mech list. I'm building and painting now to change my old army to fit this new build. How are you coming with your test list?

HQ:
CCS, 4 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 145

Elites:
Pysker Squad w/overseer, 8 psykers, Chimera ML, HF 155
Inquisitor w/bolt pistol, CCW, 2 mystics 34
5 Stormtroopers w/DS, 2 plasma guns 115

Troops:
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd w/3 plasma guns, AC, Chimera ML, HB 180
Vet Sqd w/3 plasma guns, AC, Chimera ML, HB 180
Vet Sqd w/3 plasma guns, AC, Chimera ML, HB 180
Vet Sqd w/3 plasma guns, AC, Chimera ML, HB 180

Fast Attack:
Mars Sent. 35
Mars Sent. 35

Heavy Support:
LRBT w/hull HB 150
LRBT w/hull HB 150

TOTAL: 1849

Ive been watching this thread and i just wanted to post what i think might be a good Mech list. This list is pretty much what i was running in my old list with a couple of added tweaks. I have had a vanq and unfortunatly i could only run it in apoc games. This is the only real addition i have gone with on to my old list. I love the idea of BS 4 shooting coupled with ord. The only things that shoot at bs 3 would be the chimeras.

My thought is that in my list the LC's would take advantage of the bs4 for a few turns before moving out. The vanq is there to take out high ap vehicals as well.Pask is added the the vanq for the extra bs and armour pen.

thx JB i copyed your format


HQ:
CCS, 3 gl, Chimera ML, HF 120 pts

Pask 50 pts



Troops:
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF, x arm 170
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF, x arm 170
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns,LC, Chimera ML, HF, x arm 190
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns,LC, Chimera ML, HF, x arm 190
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns,LC, Chimera ML, HF, x arm 190


Heavy Support:
2x Demo w/hull HB, HB spons 370

Vanq w/hull LC 175

Basilisk 125

TOTAL: 1750

zedsdead wrote:Ive been watching this thread and i just wanted to post what i think might be a good Mech list. This list is pretty much what i was running in my old list with a couple of added tweaks. I have had a vanq and unfortunatly i could only run it in apoc games. This is the only real addition i have gone with on to my old list. I love the idea of BS 4 shooting coupled with ord. The only things that shoot at bs 3 would be the chimeras.

My thought is that in my list the LC's would take advantage of the bs4 for a few turns before moving out. The vanq is there to take out high ap vehicals as well.Pask is added the the vanq for the extra bs and armour pen.

thx JB i copyed your format

@zedsdead

You're welcome!

You're taking a slightly different approach than tomguycot and myself (not that our lists are similar either). Your vet squads are a bit more expensive than mine and have a shorter range and reduced rate of fire. On the plus side you can almost ignore Crew Stunned results but at 15 points a pop I decided to go with more mass and accept the risk.

You do have three pie plates to my two but yours are shorter ranged. I thought about Demolishers but figured that vet squads with meltas in a Chimera had almost the same range (20" vs 24"). The Demolisher pie plate is much nastier than 3 melta guns against elite troops while the vet squad has the edge against MC (especially if I do get a successful Bring it Down order.

I like Pask and thought about taking him. Ultimately, in my test list, I'm going with bare bones choices for the most part. After six or seven games, I will revisit my decisions.

My final thought about your list is that you may be more susceptible to horde armies than my version (and I'm more susceptible to them than tomguycot).

I think testing is going to show wether or not the demolisher sponsons are worth it. i might be better off removing them and spending the points on AC's for a couple of vet squads. Im actually not sure how many pts they are. If they are 10 pts i could add them to the other 2 vet squads and the command squad. 6, bs 4 s7 shots should be better than 12 bs 3 s 5 ones. If the demolisher moves can he shoot all 3 HB's and the dem cannon or just the cannon and 1 HB ? Not fully clear on the rule.

I like the demolishers because i get alot of Termy/nob bike spam where i play.

The vanquisher is sort of a fluff try out thing. Not sure this tank will stay in my list. 170 point-sink wont last if the tank sucks. I just love how it looks.

I know x armor is expensive. However with tank shock and ramming. i cant tell you how important it is to keep the vehicals moving especially with the rear armor rules on CC. Vehicals are a great way of shocking enemys off of objectives. Even DoG is tougher to get with the downgrade to shaken. The guys in my club who play heavy vehical armies use TS all of the time and it works so well at the end of a game. Plus it gives the added bonus of possibly getting the enemy to break and run.

zedsdead wrote:I think testing is going to show wether or not the demolisher sponsons are worth it. i might be better off removing them and spending the points on AC's for a couple of vet squads. Im actually not sure how many pts they are. If they are 10 pts i could add them to the other 2 vet squads and the command squad. 6, bs 4 s7 shots should be better than 12 bs 3 s 5 ones.

I believe the ACs are 10 points each.

zedsdead wrote:If the demolisher moves can he shoot all 3 HB's and the dem cannon or just the cannon and 1 HB ? Not fully clear on the rule.

I'm not sure about the rule either. My current impression is that the LRBT or variant can fire the turret weapon, one hull weapon of S5+, and all defensive weapons.

zedsdead wrote:I like the demolishers because i get alot of Termy/nob bike spam where i play.

I agree that you have to tailor your list for the type of opponents you have where you game.

zedsdead wrote:The vanquisher is sort of a fluff try out thing. Not sure this tank will stay in my list. 170 point-sink wont last if the tank sucks. I just love how it looks.

I don't have a Vanquisher so no dilemma for me. It sounds cool, especially with Pask, but I'm definitely going with more points in mech Chimera and less in LR.

zedsdead wrote:I know x armor is expensive. However with tank shock and ramming. i cant tell you how important it is to keep the vehicals moving especially with the rear armor rules on CC. Vehicals are a great way of shocking enemys off of objectives. Even DoG is tougher to get with the downgrade to shaken. The guys in my club who play heavy vehical armies use TS all of the time and it works so well at the end of a game. Plus it gives the added bonus of possibly getting the enemy to break and run.

I agree with the value of TS. I plan to do it with the Psyker Squad supporting so that the enemy's LD is low. Also keep in mind that every single Chimera can also TS.

JB, thanks for the interest. I will post where I am going with the list later (about to have to leave) but for what it's worth the box from Forge World with my griffons arrived on my porch yesterday and I have begun getting the resin cleaned up. I do HATE working with resin but I think it will be worth it.

There are a couple of different approaches I am thinking about taking. One is pretty much all veterans in chimeras and the other is the list with veterans in Chimeras plus one large blob squad. I am still tweaking numbers around in both. I haven't been able to do any testing yet. What little free time I have had has gone into modeling so I can't tell you much in terms of how any of it has been working on the table.

Have you had a chance to use the choir yet?

tomguycot wrote:JB, thanks for the interest. I will post where I am going with the list later (about to have to leave) but for what it's worth the box from Forge World with my griffons arrived on my porch yesterday and I have begun getting the resin cleaned up. I do HATE working with resin but I think it will be worth it.

I had forgotten that the only way to get Griffons now is through FW. The one I had was an old GW one with metal and plastic parts, but I converted it to a Basilisk when GW took the Griffon out of the IG Codex.

tomguycot wrote:Have you had a chance to use the choir yet?

Like you, I am building and painting...and building and painting. I think I may do conversions for the psyker figures.

Awesome, JB, I have been following the IG Codex thread in news and rumors and I will be curious to see how yours and others' conversions turn out. I may have to eventually look into doing something similar myself because I am just not crazy about any of the current sanctioned psyker models.

tomguycot wrote:Awesome, JB, I have been following the IG Codex thread in news and rumors and I will be curious to see how yours and others' conversions turn out. I may have to eventually look into doing something similar myself because I am just not crazy about any of the current sanctioned psyker models.

It would help if GW would tell us whether they intend to release their own figures for this squad. I don't want to end up like the guy at Warforge that started working on his own Zagstruck model right before GW released their awesome one.

I don't mind the current pyskers but there are only three poses.

It will all have to wait anyhow until I finish the four Chimeras. Ok...back to the paint!

Ok, as promised my WIP guard list. Actually there are two builds at the moment but this is the one that interests me more currently. The other is the one with the footslogging element from page one of this thread.

HQ:

Company Command Squad 175
Lascannon
2x melta gun
Master of the Fleet
Chimera

Troops:

3x Veterans 175 ea. (525 total)
3x melta gun
lascannon
Chimera

2x Veterans 175 ea. (350 total)
2x Plasma gun
lascannon
Chimera

1x Veterans 150
1x flamer
Lascannon
Chimera

Heavy:

2x Griffon ...150

2x Griffon ...150

2x Basilisk ...250

Total: 1750 (even)

Just to recap, this list has
7x Chimeras
7x Balistic Skill 4 lascannons
11x Melta Guns (1 shy of every guard melta gun that I own)
6x Pie plates per turn, all fired via barrage to avoid most cover saves and cause pinning tests at -1 LD
13x tanks total
Nothing but armor value 12 targets on the board at the start of the game

The theory is that this is enough shooting that pretty much everything has to come to me or I will just shoot it off the table. Even tricksy tau jump jets can't hide from all of the barrage ordnance. From there the melta gun chimeras can go forward, pop transports and then have the artillery train will shell the hell out of whatever was riding in them.

The number and location of special weapons within squads is subject to change but given the high number of strength six and strength five shots from the chimeras I am pretty set on lascannons as the heavy weapon of choice for this list.

The only thing that really scares me are outlfnakers who I don't really get a chance to shoot at, hence the master of the fleet. I suspect he will help a lot.

The best thing about this list? The only model I still need is one more basilisk. Also, about 2/3 of it is already painted and the remaining 1/3 is on the table right now getting finished. The forge world griffons are even fully assembled and primed. I have had a VERY productive weekend. If I can keep it up I will likely have it 100% painted by the time the codex shows up in stores. It should be fun to break this out on some of the locals the day everyone gets the book.

Thoughts?

@tomguycot

Wow...horde armies are going to hate you. I agree that elite Tau "Suit" armies will hate you too.

Will the lascannons and multi-lasers be enough to stop a Nid Carnifex army? I have not fought one yet but I saw a few at my FLGS.

I don't have a good answer for enemy that outflanks, especially the ones that can move onto our table edge (Boss Snikrot, Space Wolf scouts). I guess it will depend on the scenario.

You've got me considering a pair of Griffons. I will play about six games though before I change anything. But I will go ahead and acquire the models. 150 points for a pair is just too tempting.

Like you I had a productive weekend. My four new Chimeras are in the camouflage painting stage now and I'm painting my Basilisk too (just to have it in the collection). I managed to acquire all of the remaining plasma and melta guns that I needed but they will have to reach me via mail. I'll finish the vehicles next week and then figure out the final problem: Psychic 'Choir' and Inquisitor with two mystics (also pyskers).

Keep on painting!

tomguycot i like the list alot. Looks very interesting. Im wondering however if all of those griffons will be necessary..maybe 2 Hydras ? But testing will be best to determine

I think master of the fleet might see some use in my army as well. However i will suggest that a good way to counter flankers is to do a standard Castle setup in one corner. The bassys will be able to hit anywhere on the table. and your lascannons should be in fine position to take pot shots at any enemy sitting off in the distance. Outflankers wont be able to come in behind you with this setup and no matter where they come in they should see fire from at least 50 % of your army.

What i love about 5th edition with the barrage weapons is that if necessary you can move them into better position and still shoot.



Here is my question to you guys. When you run high av 14 tanks with av12 ones such as chimera chassis. If necessary lack of cover for all my tanks i will position a LR directly in front of my bassy to obscure it. However do you guys when setting up your chimeras with LR's. Do you place the Chimeras in fronto to give LR's cover saves? or do you place the LR's in front of the chimeras to give them cover ?


also have you guys yet tested the chimeras w/o x armor ? because im finding that a chimera that cant move at certain times in a game really hurt the effectiveness of a chimera team filled with vets and 2-3 special weapons.

@JB

In regards to the comment about Nidzilla. I am not overly concerned about mass amounts of monstrous creatures. The seven BS 4 lascannons plus plasma guns and lots of str 6 and 5 firepower means that I should be able to reliably churn out quite a few wounds each turn on the big fexes. Combine this with the hit that tyranid shooting against vehicles has taken and I am fairly happy with my odds against the big guys. I am, however, worried stealer shock lists as lots of outflanking genestealers can make a mess of my chimeras quickly. Hopefully, the master of the fleet will help with this but we'll see.

As Zedsdead mentioned the "stock" plan is going to be to castle up in a corner to both maxamize the basilisk's range, block off part of the table edge for outflanking purposes and also increase the chance of master of to fleet stranding outflankers on the opposite side of the board (and also giving them less time to get to me since they will, on average, be coming in later in the game due to the -1 for reserve rolls).

@Zedsdead

The way I have usually been running it in the past with the current codex is that my Russes (usually Demolishers) tend to take up position in buildings and forests but in a pinch they can set up quite nicely behind a Chimera and due to their size get a cover save while still having an unobstructed view. I'm not real big on this though because I don't like handing out free cover saves against the demolisher cannon for shooting through intervening friendly units. But if what you're shooting at is going to get cover anyhow then why not. Also having a Chimera sitting in front of you makes getting within 6" for a melta gun much trickier. It all depends on what I'm expecting to face really.

This is also why I like the current list so much. All of my ordnance is of the barrage type so I can hide behind my screen of Chimeras if cover is lacking and get 4+ saves while not giving one out in return.

After further review, I tweaked my list a bit more and cut it down to 1750.

CCS, 3 melta, Chimera w/ ML, HF 135

Advisor 30 (most likely the Officer of the Fleet)

Pysker Squad w/overseer, 8 psykers, Chimera w/ ML, HF 155

Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd, AC, Chimera ML, HB 135
Vet Sqd, AC, Chimera ML, HB 135
Vet Sqd, AC, Chimera ML, HB 135
Vet Sqd, AC, Chimera ML, HB 135
All H. Vet sergeants have shotguns instead of CCW and laspistol.

Hellhound w/hull HB 130

LRBT w/hull HB 150
LRBT w/hull HB 150
2x Griffon w/hull HF 150

Basically, I dropped my STs, two scout sentinels, and plasma guns in favor of a Hellhound, advisor, and two Griffons. Time will tell if I made the right choice. I also reduced my total points from 1850 down to 1750. If I need to bump back up, I can toss in six plasma guns and a melta or go with the two scout sentinels and two plasma guns. As tomguycot pointed out, it's hard to pass up the Griffons. I took the Hellhound because it moves with the army, and it can fire a weapon that autohits and ignores cover saves. The Officer of the Fleet still seems to be the best advisor if you are not using flankers/deep strikers. I may change my mind after a few Dawn of War scenarios with this list.

Well, I played my first test game with a list substantially similar to the one above. I didn't have my second basilisk yet so I subbed it out for a few more weapons in the squads, a lascannon sentinel and a multilaser sentinel.

My opponent is a friend of mine playing basic space marines. His list was was a pretty solid Iron Hands themed list that was roughly as follows:

1750 Space Marine List

HQ:

Master of the Forge w' conversion beamer

Elites:

Assault Terminators w' thunderhammer/storm shield x 5
Dedicated Landraider Tansport

2x Dreadnoughts w' twin lascannon and missile launcher.

Troops:

3x 10 man tactical squads

Heavy:

2x Landraiders (!)

1x Dreadnought w' twin lascannon and missile launcher

We rolled our mission and played Annihilation (kill points) with Pitched Battle Deployment. My opponent won the roll to pick deployment zones and go first. He set up his forces around the landraiders each spread out pretty evenly along the edge of his deployment zone. His master of the forge set up in the second story of some ruins that had been bolstered for a 3+ cover save. The one tactical squad that did not have a ride set up in some cover in the middle of the table. I in turn castled up in my lefthand table corner with the basilisk in the very corner. With this set up I would effectively take one of his landraiders out of the game for at least couple of turns. I tried to set up the chimeras in the front where they were taking use of as much cover as possible (I think two of them were obscured) and in turn they obscured all of my artillery and the sentinels. All units were deployed inside of their respective Chimeras. I chose not to outflank since there was no advantage to be gained from getting side shots on armor.

I failed to sieze the initiative and my opponent went first. The landraiders rolled forward as expected with the one on my far right and the middle moving 12" and the one on my left only moving 6". His initial shooting phase was devastating. I don't think anything missed (granted most of it was twin linked). The Master of the Forge killed my basilisk, the multilaser sentinel had its weapon destroyed by lascannon fire from a landraider and several other chimeras were imobilized/and or shaken. This severely limited my turn one shooting and the only thing of note that happened is that the Master of the Forge was multilasered to death (even despite his 2+ save). Several chimeras popped smoke and I managed to get one in position for a good turn two meltagunning on a landraider. The griffons also performed admirably and killed half of the tactical squad in the middle of the table. They also managed to pin them which was nice but it also started a rather ugly trend of absolutely nothing on either side of the table passing a pinning test.

Second turn saw a similar advance from the space marines with more good shooting that managed to shake several chimeras and destroy another (which then resulted in the squad inside failing its pinning test).On my second turn the vets on the left flank that had set up the meltagun attack on the first turn executed it and imobilized and stunned the landraider on the far left. I attempted to set it up to where I could not be assaulted on the next turn by placing my chimera next to one of the exits on the landraider and then disembarking as far away from the other exits as possible. The giffons continued to chew the tactical marines in the middle of the table to shreds and I think the one remaining guy was pinned to add insult to injury!

From here on out things get a little hazy. I believe the terminators multiple assaulted two of my chimeras but they completely wiffed on one and destroyed the other (of course the passengers failed their pinning test). I believe the command chimera was destroyed this turn as well. And of course the Command HQ failed its pinning test even on LD 9. I also miss estimated on my melta gun squad on the left and my opponent was just barely able to assault them though they held firm and even killed a couple of marines in hand to hand (!). My turn three was brutal and almost good enough to swing things my way. The terminators were wiped out by two rapid firing plasma squads and the landraider in the middle was reduced to slag by one of the melta gun squads. Go go close range shooting! The griffons didn't have much to shoot at this turn and tried unsuccessfully to knock out dreadnoughts.

Turn four saw the end of my meltagun veterans but only after they took a couple of more marines with them. The immobilized landraider also finished off the Chimera that had delivered the melta gun vets. The tac marines on my far right finally got into position and disembarked so that they could kill my exposed command squad. The dreadnoughts, as I recall were mostly ineffective this turn. My giffons once again showed their worth by reducing the new tac squad that had just emerged on my right to goo and pinning the couple of guys that were left. All of my other squads had target practice on the landraiders but didn't even manage to get so much as a glance. Both remaining landraiders were too far out on each of my flanks to effectively get melta guns into place since the melta gunners rides had all been destroyed at this point.

Turn five was pretty uneventful for the marines. The few remaining guys tried to get into cover and the landraiders and dreadnoughts kept shooting at my vehicles with only minor effect now that there was ample cover from the several dead chimeras (and some Chimeras were either in cover or had moved into cover). On my turn I kept trying to finish off the other two landraiders with absolutely no luck. The griffons and Chimeras now turned their attention to the marines that had murdered my poor melta gun vets earlier and wiped them off of the board. The griffons were, as usual, brutal.

Turn six was more of the same. I don't think that much of anything noteworthy happened on this turn other than the game coming to an end.

We tallied up kills and I had 5 kill points from him (three tac squads, terminator squad, and a landraider) and he had six kill points from me (basilisk, three chimeras, command squad and one veteran squad). I definitely made some mistakes here and if I had made a couple less this would have been a very winnable game. The veterans were brutally lethal at close range and both me and my opponent were surprised at how quickly they dispatched anything that got within 12" of them. It also did not help that I am quite rusty.

Oddly enough both sentinels survived though neither contributed in a meaningful way so I am not sure what to think about them. Also, the only veteran squad that I lost was the one where I slightly misdeployed from their Chimera so as to let them get assaulted.

Some thoughts from this game:

1. This reconfirms what I already knew. Lascannons do NOT cut it against AV 14. I'm not sure how many shots I put into his land raiders during the course of the game (I had 8 lascannons) and the only thing that managed to do any damage to either of the landraiders were meltaguns. I am pretty sure that I should have been shooting at dreadnoughts with my lascannons even though the landraiders were more "threatening". I rolled 13 for my armor penetration at least 6 or 7 times and if I had been shooting dreadnoughts I would have killed at least two of them on average.

2. Giffons, WOW! These things were just absolutely murdering marines. The ability to reroll the scatter is huge and it was not uncommon for me to get two direct hits. Also, the -1 LD for the pinning test came in handy and made the difference twice in marines being pinned.

3. Annihilation is still not my favorite mission.

4. I am rusty. I haven't played much in the last few months and I made quite a few sloppy play mistakes in the game that had a very real impact on the final outcome. Oh well, all the more reason to play more test games!

No KP for the Master of the Forge?

The fight was interesting. Did you use a Master of the Fleet?

I'm surprised he was not popping sentinels for easy KP.

I'm glad to see that the Griffons paid off.

Will you play any horde armies soon? Would really like to see how your list fares versus Orks.

Oops, minor mistake on what I got kill points for. I actually think one of the tac squads had a guy or two left at the end of the game in combat with the multilaser sentinel (so nothing could shoot at them).

My opponent did attempt, on several occasions, to kill the sentinels. He had the heavy bolters on the landraiders shoot at them quite a few times through power of the machine spirit and also had a few dreadnoughts shoot at them throughout the game at opportune times. Throughout most of the game both of my sentinels were in cover and managed to make quite a few cover saves. Also, the multilaser sentinel was being used as a shield for his last tactical marines so that also kept my opponent from shooting the sentinel.

I did use master of the fleet, however nothing started in reserves so his only contribution to the fight was to be an ablative wound for one of the meltaguns in the command squad.

As for this list versus Orks, there are at least a couple of Ork players around locally. I will try to find one next weekend and get a game in. Hopefully, one of them will make it up to the store.

JB, one question about your list above. Am I correct in thinking that the Autocannon squads do not have a special weapon? The ability to take three special weapons seem SO good in the veteran squads. If anything I would consider dropping my heavy weapons out of my squads before I thought about dropping the specials.

Outside of the effectiveness of the griffon the other thing this game demonstrated for me was that the veteran squads are lethal to anything that got within 12" if they are fully decked out with special weapons. Landraiders, terminators, whatever, they were no match for massed plasma guns, flamers and metla guns.

tomguycot wrote:JB, one question about your list above. Am I correct in thinking that the Autocannon squads do not have a special weapon? The ability to take three special weapons seem SO good in the veteran squads. If anything I would consider dropping my heavy weapons out of my squads before I thought about dropping the specials.

Outside of the effectiveness of the griffon the other thing this game demonstrated for me was that the veteran squads are lethal to anything that got within 12" if they are fully decked out with special weapons. Landraiders, terminators, whatever, they were no match for massed plasma guns, flamers and metla guns.

I'm still messing around with lists based on what I have on hand and can easily obtain. I still want to keep a solid mechanized force. Here's a new cut since I cannot lay my hands on a second Griffon (at a reasonable cost). This version is quite easy to field once I finish my four additional Chimeras (working on details now) and the Psyker squad. The only other holdouts are a handful of melta/plas gunners to paint and either buying a new Chimera to make into a Griffon (I already have the Griffon bits) or ripping apart my Bassie to turn it back into a Griffon. I'm more inclined to just buy another Chimera since I don't think the Bassie is going to give up without a lot of torn plastic. Getting a list on the table by 2 May is important so that I can playtest IG mech (as you are already doing), so this list appeals to me. I also want to spend less time painting up mundane figs and get right to the fun of creating the Psyker Battle Squad.

CCS, 3 melta Chimera w/ ML, HF 135

Pysker Squad w/overseer, 8 psykers, Chimera w/ ML, HB 155

Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd, 3 flamers, Chimera ML, HF 140
Vet Sqd, 3 plasma, Chimera ML, HB 170
Vet Sqd, 3 plasma, Chimera ML, HB 170
Vet Sqd, 2 plasma, 1 AC, Chimera ML, HB 165

Hellhound w/hull HB 130
LRBT w/hull HB 150
LRBT w/hull HB 150
Griffon w/hull HF 75

Total: 1750

JB, that seems like a good starting point to me. I am liking the concept of using the Chimeras as special weapon delivery systems. Similarly, the list I was running last Saturday had heavy weapons in the Chimeras too but honestly I think that I might have been better served with rolling everything forward and getting into melta/plasma range as quickly as possible since those were where most of my non-griffon kills came from anyhow. Seriously, the lascannons (all 8 of them) had essentially no impact on the game.

I am really looking forward to seeing how the psyker squads work for people and once I get my veterans and griffons finished those will likely be my next project.

Speaking of painting I have almost finished my veterans. Six squads worth was a real pain but thankfully I already had about 20 basic guardsmen semi painted so all I had to do was add a few finishing touches to distinguish them as veterans. However, painting the additional 15 guys and three heavy weapons teams from scratch has been kind of boring. I am very much looking forward to moving on to the Griffons. Tanks are always much more fun to paint.

Tomguycot,

Here's another version that I'm considering:

CCS, 3 melta Chimera HF 135
CCS, 3 melta Chimera HF 135
Officer of the Fleet 30
Astropath 30
Techpriest 45

Pysker Squad w/overseer, 8 psykers, Chimera HB 155

Vet Sqd w/3 melta guns, Chimera HF 155
Vet Sqd, 3 flamers, Chimera HF 140
Vet Sqd, 3 plasma, AC, Chimera HB 180
Vet Sqd, 2 plasma, AC, Chimera HB 165

Hellhound HB 130

LRBT HB 150
LRBT HB 150
2 Griffon HF 150

TOTAL: 1750 points

I made the changes since it looks like I will get my hands on two Griffons. I also think that a second CCS with melta guns makes more sense than another veteran squad with them. Same BS, ability to use orders on itself, higher leadership, and cheaper point cost.

I am arriving at a conclusion that the Astropath is the most important advisor followed by the Master of the Fleet. I may elect to keep my whole army off-board on Turn 1 and will want the Astropath to help me arrive in strength on Turn 2. He also comes in handy for Dawn of War scenarios. The Master of the Fleet is very useful in Dawn of War as well as any other time the enemy keeps reserves.

The Techpriest is my "stupid" thing to take in the list but I like him. He may also prove useful in my LRBT and Griffon castle in order to keep the LRBT battle cannons working. With a 5+ to repair, he's better than he was in the 4e Codex. If he ever gets a successful S8 'power fist' attack, that will just make my day.

I envision two vet squads with Chimeras defending my objective with the LRBTs, Techpriest, and Griffons castled nearby in support. The CCSs, Hellhound, and other two veteran squads are on the offensive to kill tanks, eliminate enemy fire support, and contest the enemy objective. If I'm facing a really fast or strong enemy, I may elect to keep this assault force on my side of the table until the Griffons and LRBTs have thinned the foe out a little bit. The assault force may also serve as a counterattack force in the right situation.

The Psyker Battle Squad is a wild card. I may use it for offense or defense depending on the enemy. Since the psyker powers are 36" inch range and Assault, I have some flexibility.

JB wrote:

I am arriving at a conclusion that the Astropath is the most important advisor followed by the Master of the Fleet. I may elect to keep my whole army off-board on Turn 1 and will want the Astropath to help me arrive in strength on Turn 2. He also comes in handy for Dawn of War scenarios. The Master of the Fleet is very useful in Dawn of War as well as any other time the enemy keeps reserves.

This is very interesting because with my mechanized list I am coming to the exact same conclusion. I am still testing the base version that I posted about in the battle report against the space marines earlier in the thread but I have swapped out the multilaser sentinel (pretty useless and an easy kill point) for an astropath. From what I am seeing, in games where I'm not going to be going first I think I would generally rather just deny my opponent their first shooting phase and then have 2/3 of my army show up on turn two, and if necessary pop smoke. I am of the opinion that I don't think I'll be leaving home without an Officer of the Fleet and Astropath from here on out and today's gaming very much confirmed that for me.

I had hoped to get in a couple of games today but we actually had a lot of 40k players show up (not a bad thing) and since table space was limited me and a few other guys decided to play a team game. My team mate was actually the guy with the landraider heavy list from last week.

My opponents were a guy playing Ultramarines lead by marnius calgar himself. I don't remember a lot about his list because the guy that I was primarily facing off against during the game was another friend of mine playing dark eldar. He has what I consider to be a very solid list consisting of a mix of warrior and wych squads mounted in raiders along with a few ravagers. The list also contains a bunch of sybarites with horrofexes (they are brutal against non fearless armies).

We played Dawn of War deployment with the mission where each player has an objective in their deployment zone. We had our's on our right flank inside of a building that had been forified by my teammate's Master of the Forge and our opponents had theirs on their right flank so each team had an objective in the opposite corner.

Our team set up with my teammate stringing out a couple of tactical squads on our left flank at the edge of our deployment zone and as close as possible to the enemy objective (this effectively limited our opponents to only 6" of deployment zone on the right half of their table.) I deployed my command squad without a vehicle inside of the fortified building and a veteran squad with plasma guns inside of their chimera sitting hull down in the middle of a river (go go amphibious rule!) near our objective. The river in question ran all the way from one deployment zone to the other and had two bridges crossing it. We generally play rivers as difficult terrain and that they provide 4+ cover to anything standing or sitting in them. YMMV on how these are treated.

Our team got to go first and as I recall the first turn was mostly uneventful. All of our stuff came onto the board except a sentinel (that I simply forgot about ...oops!) which we deemed to be held in reserves. Our night fighting rolls were abysmal and what little bit of army that we had fumbled around in the dark. The rest of our army rolled onto the board and got into position for firing next turn. My team mate's marines advanced on the enemy objective. The opposing team had better luck with the night fighting rolls but apparently forgot to load their weapons as I don't recall anything actually taking any damage from shooting. However, the dark Eldar player did zip a Drachite and retinue of incubi onto the table and assaulted one of the tactical squads. This was not pretty. Only one or two of the brave marines survived the assault but even they were caught and killed. Drachite and co. rolled a 6 for consolidation and moved back out of reprisal range for the other tactical squad. Filthy xenos scum ...they'll get theirs (and boy did they).

Turn two. All of our stuff was now in position. I think the landraiders shuffled around a bit to get into better firing position but there was not a lot of movement on our side. I don't recall too much about my team mate's shooting but what I do remember is that the majority of the dark eldar army deployed on the side of the table where the bulk of my arm was deployed (near our objective on our right flank). The Imperial Guard guns opened fire and I think every raider except one was destroyed and both remaining ravagers were immobilized (I think my teammate killed one of them too). The carnage continued as each successive raider exploded and injured more passengers from the previously destroyed raiders. When the smoke cleared the majority of the dark eldar army was destroyed, pinned, broken or just plain dead. I do not know that I have ever seen a more brutal single shooting phase than this one. Keep in mind that between the exploding transports and barrage fire from the griffons and basilisks there were a LOT of pinning checks being made at -1 LD this turn. Most noteworthy of the pinned unit was the Archon (Archyte?) and her retinue of wyches that had turbo boosted very close to our objective.

Our opponents turn two consisted of a now depleted Drachite and retinue assaulting some marines but this time failing to break them since they lost half of their squad to fire from one of the Griffon squadrons (reroll of the scatter die is just gross). Also the assault elements of the marines moved forward while heavy weapons fire mostly bounced off of landraiders and cover saves of other units.

About the funniest thing I remember about turn three was that the Imperial guard command squad's empty chimera tank shocked the Archite and broke her squad and since they were below half strength they couldn't rally and were out of the fight. The shooting this turn focused more on the marine half of our opponent's army. Most of the remaining dark eldar were still out of sight behind their wrecked raiders. I did pop the last raider with a Chimera and the basilisk direct fired on the survivors and killed 8 (!) of them. I don't recall much of the shooting against marines being effective and of course they chose to pass their pinning checks thanks to Calgar. In the assault phase of this turn our last squad of marines on our left flank charged out of a landraider and finished off the drachite and two incubi that were still fighting the depleted tactical squad from last turn.

We played three and a half more turns from here but honestly the game was over at this point. We had cleaned off the only scoring units from the enemy's objective and completely removed the other side's mobility so there was no way they would get scoring units over to it. We also had a tactical squad and a half plus a squad of veterans in a chimera to babysit the enemy objective. It was never really contested because the only enemy units still on that side of the table were two immobile ravagers that did not have line of sight to the units holding the objective (there was a very large hill in the way).

The other couple of highlights for the imperial guard were my command squad wiping out a unit of wyches in hand to hand (admittedly there were only 4 of them left but ...still) and a squad of plasma veterans killing Marneus Calgar after he had single handedly wiped out one of my teammates 10 man tactical squads. Never send a space marine to do a guardsman's job...

So in conclusion, this wasn't exactly what I had in mind when I showed up to play today but still it was a very interesting game. The main thing that it showed me is that this army list is absolutely brutal against other lists with light vehicles. Turn two was as close to one on one as you can get in a team game and I KO'd the better part of a 1750 point dark eldar list. This was even with the majority of the raiders having moved fast the turn before. He did make a few cover saves but all of those Chimeras just churn out a ton of glancing and penetrating hits versus raiders.

Once again the Griffons were good. However, I am thinking that I want to try Leman Russes in this list as well. The griffons work fine in games where I just start on the table with my army but I am thinking that they will be much less impressive in missions where I start with them off of the table. This has me thinking that it would be worth experimenting with either two LRBTs in place of the two griffon squadrons or that I should replace one griffon squadron and the basilisk and sentinel with LRBTs since they can move onto the board and still hit something up to 72" out with a battle cannon shot.

And finally the basilisk. It has to go. In both games so far it has been completely underwhelming. One turn it did kill 8 out of 10 warriors in a unit but every other turn it either just completely scattered off target or was completely negated by cover. It has been quite disappointing in both games especially compared to the griffons. A leman Russ would have performed just as well and would have been much harder to kill.

I agree with this list:

HQ:
CCS, 2 plasma, 2 melta Chimera w/ ML, HF 155

Elites:
Pysker Squad w/overseer, 7 psykers, Chimera w/ ML, HF 145
Inquisitor w/bolt pistol, CCW, 2 mystics 34
5 Stormtroopers w/DS, 2 plasma guns 115

Troops:
Vet Sqd w/3 meltaguns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd w/3 meltaguns, Chimera ML, HF 155
Vet Sqd w/ 2 plasma, 1 meltagun, AC, Chimera ML, HB 175
Vet Sqd w/ 2 plasma, 1 meltagun, AC, Chimera ML, HB 175
Vet Sqd w/ 2 plasma, 1 meltagun, AC, Chimera ML, HB 175
Vet Squad w/ 3 plasma, AC, Chimera ML, HB 180

Fast Attack:
Mars Sent. 35
Mars Sent. 35

Heavy Support:
LRBT w/hull HB 150
LRBT w/hull HB 150

Although I would drop the sentinals and a vet squad or 2 for some Basilisks. But I'm not an IG player so I don't know about the points or how good these are!

I modified that list quite a bit. I will not use two Basilisks, but I did add two Griffons. I also dropped the Sentinels and two veteran squads as well as the stormtroopers and the Inquisitor. I added two advisors, a Hellhound, and an Enginseer. There were a lot of minor weapon changes as well.

Take a look at tomguycot's batreps. He's actually testing his list. I'm still building and painting to get my old army to match my new list.

Another tip would be that you could have a squad of Grey Knights for close combat or a Sisters squad.