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Jin wrote:Yes, all armies have ways of dealing with these things to a certain extent, but depending on the army, it may really hamper their ability to deal with other aspects of the game as well.

You're right.

Knowing myself at least, I would go and emphasize magic defense in a tournament and probably pull two Dwarf armies, and an empire gunline army.

It's hard for myself to argue army fix issues. I play in a circle that has a great balance of armies. Out of the usual 10-15 I play against 1-2 have daemons, 2 play vc occasionally, and the rest have 1-3 different armies that they mix in and out. I don't go to GTs, or the other tournaments with 100+ in attendance.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Any army has a hard tive vs ratling gun spam, however with ward saves that stay vs magical attacks, I'd still be going for the daemons.

Since any countershooting at all can kill ratlings now, I have yet to see ratling guns work anywhere except on paper. They are simply easy VPs.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Gobbla wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Up until VC release every army could turn up with an allcomers list with their own spin on it to a tourney and be competative.

Not Orcs.

I beg to differ.

With only 1 practice game vs new lizardmen my Night Goblins (with only 9 fanatics) managed at the last tourney a month ago..

Draw vs new Lizardmen (2 stegadons with EOTG and tenihuini riding one of them)
Draw vs daemons, multi god, 4 heralds
Small Loss to Dwarfs (800 point turnaround when I failed a breaktest and reroll on the last rolls of the game)
Small loss to DEs (with 40 shades )
Massacre win vs empire cav army... complete with Karl Franz on horse and STANK.

Now I know what the hell I am doing with them I think I could probably win 3-4 in a 5 game tourney, admittedly they will unlikely be massacres but you can win with O&G.

I do agree however that animosity is a built in way to ensure that O&G have very little chance of ever being top tier.


Also last year the colonial GT in the US was won by common goblins.

Two draws, 2 losses, 1 win is a a good record with Night Goblins. Especially against the Daemons. The problem is O&G are so random that improving on that record is out of your hands, no matter how well you play. Yes, we all heard about one Goblin player winning one GT since the O&G book came out. It was so surprising it made the rounds on all the forums. If you looked at the rules for that GT, they were very much in his favor. Still, good for him. I'm going to venture that the abysmal record of O&G at EVERY other GT means they are really just not competative.

Even without Animosity, O&G are mediocre. I do wish you luck, though. If you roll well with O&G, they are very compettive. If you roll average, they are not.

I read a few posts that said they expect stego spam to be in the top tier at tournies, and I don't think I agree. I don't think there is anything in the Lizardmen book that is ZOMG broken. Almost everything, if not everything, in there is strong and useful, without being overpowering. Apart from WoC, since I have not played them yet, I would say that the Lizardmen book is the most balanced book that has been released in some time.

Will you see Stego spam in the top, maybe for a little bit. But that is expensive and not impossible to counter, especially with squishy skinks on top. Stego spam is not a win button by any means, unlike some of the power builds mentioned previously.

@Rated G: No, Lizardmen aren't especially broken, and seem to me, at least at cursory glance, to be pretty balanced.

No, Stego spam is not an instant win, and I reckon that Daemons will still hold top spot. However, it's still difficult to get rid of that many T6 wounds, and dealing with multiple EotG's isn't going to be easy for anyone.

Jin wrote:@Rated G: No, Lizardmen aren't especially broken, and seem to me, at least at cursory glance, to be pretty balanced.

No, Stego spam is not an instant win, and I reckon that Daemons will still hold top spot. However, it's still difficult to get rid of that many T6 wounds, and dealing with multiple EotG's isn't going to be easy for anyone.

Easy? No, not at all. Nor should it be when you are spending a minimum of 355 a piece. That is before upgrades or wargear. EotGs are very strong, but you pay a reasonable price for them. Is this a tough army to face? I would be a liar if I said no. But I would say the majority of the armies out there have decent counters to this tactic.

Okay, poor word choice on my part.

No, it shouldn't be easy to deal with it. In fact, no army, I think, will have an "easy" time getting rid of multiple stegadons.

Stegadons on an individual level are not broken. I haven't gotten a chance to look at the LM book thoroughly yet, but from my understanding, it's a pretty well balanced book. My comment is mostly on the fact that they have made it (relatively) easy to spam a monster list for this army - and this is a trend that I'm finding for a bunch of the new lists, and it's rather irksome.

Yes, most armies have some decent counters to this tactic. However, I'd wager that lots of them would have to spend an inordinate amount of points in their army to do so. As jmurph stated before, Not Impossible to Counter != balanced.

I'll reiterate my comments on this: No, Lizardmen Stego-rush is not impossible to beat. Yes, they will difficult to varying degrees to deal with, depending on one's army. In all likelihood, the current Top Tier will not be affected much by this list. No, the Lizardmen book does not come off as unbalanced - rather, this specific build comes off as a bit over-the-top. With respect to countering the Stego-rush - those armies that can counter the list without significant sacrifice against other types of lists will do better than those that will have to devote much of their list to counter the Stego-rush.

Stego-Rush wouldn't be so bad if you were limited to one EotG. But once you throw a second one in there, things go over-the-top quickly.

Having multiple effects of that nature, that can't be dispelled, which allow on armor save, and affect units in combat... Over the top. Perhaps if even ONE of those limitations were taken out, I'd have a different view, but as it stands, more thanone EotG is - in my personal opinion - very close to Thorek Ironbrow.

Agreed, Manfred

swordsman 6pts
Bloodletter 15pts
25 Swordsman kicking bloodletter butt priceless

I don´t mind playing angainst any army whatsoever, except daemons. Especially when I bring a fun list, and on the other side is Das Uberkäsiges DaemonenArmee des Totes!

EOGs, at the end of the day have a WS 2 T2 W2 character sitting on top of them. A fully upgraded unit will be 440 pts, and risks losing the engine in any challenge.

If the skink priest could not be singled out, then it would be over priced, but at it stands it is a big cost, big risk unit.

Compare that to a herald on a Jug. Just as hard, but better in combat and cheaper.

Manfred Von Drakken wrote:Stego-Rush wouldn't be so bad if you were limited to one EotG. But once you throw a second one in there, things go over-the-top quickly.
Having multiple effects of that nature, that can't be dispelled, which allow on armor save, and affect units in combat... Over the top. Perhaps if even ONE of those limitations were taken out, I'd have a different view, but as it stands, more thanone EotG is - in my personal opinion - very close to Thorek Ironbrow.

Durandal wrote:EOGs, at the end of the day have a WS 2 T2 W2 character sitting on top of them. A fully upgraded unit will be 440 pts, and risks losing the engine in any challenge.

You're both right, which is why the EotG is not overpowered, but is still an extremely effective tool. The true power of the EotG, like all good magic, lies in utility, not kill-tility (trademark pending). Every turn, the engine is equipped to do some extremely effective stuff, whether it be impact hit the crap out of a flank, terror some poor saps, protect himself and 2-3 other units from ranged fire, rock his 4 dispel dice, or throw 4 power dice at Uranon's Thunderbolt the turns you get it (Uranon's followed by burning alignment=hilarious!), they're incredibly multi-purpose.

the main weakness of the EotG is, in fact, the lowly priest riding on it. I've lost my engine on more than one occasion to spammed low strength fire (dark elf crossbowmen anyone?), the randomized hits eventually pegging the priest and killing him. He's extremely susceptible to challenges as well. On the other hand, you're kind of failing if your engine get's challenged when you didn't charge, and most champions (and some unlucky heroes) will still get buried by the steg's 3 S6 attacks (and an impact hit on the characters, more often than not). Also, 2+ armour tends to save his ass pretty often unless your foe's rocking S6 or anti-armour magic weapons anyway.

It still boggles my mind that the chief-adon (skink chief+stegadon warspear+ancient stegadon) isn't even considered to be in the same ballpark as the EotG for cheese. 2d6+1 S6 impacts, then 6 S6 attacks? I've exploded some pretty mean blocks, charging their front ranks (chaos warriors + exalted hero, for one). The ability to throw 4d6 poisoned shots the turn before you charge is just some nice insurance, whittling at CR when you can.

4 Eotgs + blocks and blocks of saurus....

have skink priest cast the melee re roll 1s spell to make it worse.
or spam meteor before the lines reach each other.

Durandal wrote:Compare that to a herald on a Jug. Just as hard, but better in combat and cheaper.

Can the Herald charge into combat and then blast all nearby enemies for D6 hits with no save? Didn't think so.

My biggest issue has to be that the EotG can't have its effects dispelled (this is also, incidentally, one of my issues with the Anvil of Doom).

My greatest moment was when i killed the priest on the steggy with plague squall. 11 hits 4 on the priest all 4 wound... fear the plague

Let me preface this, I play Daemons. I do think they are loaded compared to some armies.


While not complaining here, I think some of you don't understand what that EotG can do with that "stomp". I had 1 kill, in one turn, a Greater Daemon, the Masque, finish off a unit of Flesh hounds, and finish off 2 units of Horrors.

Of course, the guy I was playing had 2 of them, so that wasnt the end of the carnage. It is st5 against the Daemons, and a very powerful anti-Daemon tool, because it happens with no way to dispell or stop it.

Combine that with the magic sword(forget its name) where you must roll a leadership check when wounded or BE PICKED UP!!! Of course if you pass your leadership roll, you still need to make saves against the very wounds that caused you to roll the leadership. So far, it seems the LM book has some very nice counters to Daemons and VC. If you dont play either of these armies, then you probably don't see it, but if you do, you know what danger is there.


Either way, I am good with them being a counter, everything needs a counter.


Clay

Ogres and O&G can be good armies but not over the top.Elve armies have good and bad you just need to know how to exploit the weak points.As for VC I think the spells should have the same cast values as Ogres, each time it is cast in the same phase it cost 1 more each time.Deamons need to have a way to get around the ITP because that is to powerful in this system.As for GW balancing the codexes(WHFB/40K) much as I hate to say it until it is cost effective it will never happen.Money talks and gamer geeks walk!