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Lordhat wrote:IMO it's 2 KP's. Again with their crappy/lazy wording, GW has muffed it. No one else has seemed to hit upon the idea that the HT is made an "upgrade" character for the specific purpose of not allowing it to be singled out in CC. This, taken with the phrase "This unit follows the rules for retinues...." would clear up any ambiguities, I think.

How so? So the Guard follows the rules for retinues. The rules for Retinues in and of themselves don't determine KP. They work with the Annihilation rules to do so.

Characters are either ICs or upgrade characters.

Tyranid FAQ says to treat HT as an upgrade character and the unit as if it's a retinue.

The Annihilation rules say retinues with characters are worth 2 KP, 1 for the retinue and 1 for the character. It does not restrict this to ICs, but does retrict this to retinues.

So Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard are worth 2 KP total.

Upgrade characters are worth 0 KP.

Retinues are worth 1 KP.

So as long as the Hive tyrant is in the group it's worth 1 KP. As soon as the group is eliminated other than the Tyrant it reverts to a MC, thus worth a KP. However it is IMO that if the Hive Tyrant due to some miricale were to die before the Group (Vindicare or what have you) he would be worth no kill points as he is an upgrade charcter.

While an upgrade character is ordinarily 0 KP, with a retinue it's changed to 1 KP.

"The rulebook clearly states on page 91 that a character and his retinue are worth 1 kill point each." That's from the regular 40k FAQ, in the same paragraph as the stuff about IG and retinues. While in context, that sentence follows one which mentions ICs, ICs are not part of the rule on p. 91. So I think it's acceptable to read that sentence alone.

In any case, I'll put the page number up when I get home - earlier in the book, the basic rulebook notes that ICs and upgrade characters are subsets of characters in general. p. 91 mentions "characters", so it would apply to all characters including when retinues transform an IC to an upgrade character.

As such, this Tyranid unit may skip one of the ordinary steps, yet it still seems to fit under the rules re: KPs.

Gaylord, you are missing the fact that a "retinue" does not have to be labeled as such.

Anything that meets the description is considered a 'retinue'

If it is a unit that the IC/character *must* start with, and can't leave... it is a retinue; regardless of how it is labeled.


Now, if you are willing to take the retinue and KP rules in context of each other, then it all works out; because retinues are intended to be for ICs. But if one insists that every upgrade character with a 'retinue' is worth 2KP, then every tac squad meets that definition.

arinnoor wrote:I think Mondo is right on this one. Since the Tyranid FAQ specificly refers to the Hive Tyrant as an upgrade character that is what he is. Does Tellion, Zagstruck, Snikrot, or kahrnack give an extra kill point? No. Though, I will admit the rules are not cut and dry on this this is just my opinion. Niether of which are the way to do it, just a way to do it.

The tyranid FAQ is almost word for word the same as the IC rules on pg 48. Both refer to the character as an upgrade character.

BRB, p. 47 is the obvious place. Warhammer 40,000 armies normally include two types of characters, Independent Characters and Upgrade Characters - this is defined in the basic rules.

Independent Characters and Upgrade Characters are therefore both subtypes of Characters.

Page 91 - the retinue kill point rule - doesn't refer to Independent Characters. If any kind of character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each. In this case, it doesn't matter whether it's an IC that turns into an UC because of the retinue, or an MC that turns into an UC because of the FAQ. Any kind of character and a retinue is 1 KP each under p. 91.

(Incidentally, it also doesn't matter whether an IC that is treated as an UC dies before or after the rest of the unit. Reverting back to IC status doesn't change that this rule refers to all characters in general - it was ALWAYS 2 KP, and having the IC/UC die first would only matter if it was limited to apply only to UCs or ICs.)

coredump wrote:Now, if you are willing to take the retinue and KP rules in context of each other, then it all works out; because retinues are intended to be for ICs. But if one insists that every upgrade character with a 'retinue' is worth 2KP, then every tac squad meets that definition.

I don't see the need to link the rules. They aren't even in the same chapter.

The p. 46 retinue rules specifically note, very consistently, "Independent Characters," not just characters. So only an Independent Character can have a retinue, with various Codexes allowed to mix things up if they want to. An example being these Tyranids. The Tyranid rules would have to stay the Hive Tyrant stays an MC with its retinue for the KP rule to be inapplicable, yet the FAQ points out that it is indeed an UC. If it's a character and a retinue, it's 1 kill point each.

That doesn't define a unit of a sergeant and tac marines as anything different because it's not a retinue under any rule, except maybe an interpretation that p. 91's text says "Independent Character" so believing it says "character" means we should take "Independent Character" from earlier in the book as "character." No need - they each mean what they say already. Independent Characters make retinues, any type of character in a retinue is 1 KP for the character and 1 KP for the rest of the unit.

And a retinue is any unit that starts with a character, where the character can't leave.
Like a tac squad.
The rules for defining a retinue use the term character, not IC.

I don't see the need to link the rules. They aren't even in the same chapter.

The don't have to be in the same chapter, they are in the same book, about the same game.

p/91 refers to a character and a retinue. To determine 'what is a retinue' it takes you to p.48; where a retinue is defined, and thus providing context for what is meant by a 'character and retinue' And a retinue is meant to be an IC and a unit it can''t leave.

The rules for defining a retinue are mentioned and boxed in the rules for Independent Characters on pg. 48. It's about characters' inability to leave units in a section about ICs joining and leaving units. Pg. 91's a kill point rule for retinues and characters in Annihilation missions.

Because of this, in choosing which point to change the rules, I'm comfortable with saying that the use of IC instead of just character is appropriate as it is strongly implied in page 48 (and would be hard to imagine working without it), while IC instead of just character on page 91 is an overreach. Changing both may seem like consistency. Yet there's an interpretation that makes the page 91 reference make sense as it is. Without changing it, pg. 91 clarifies both the Tyranid kill point question and the question of what happens if an IC dies as an UC in a retinue. Changing that to add I in front of C muddles the rules again.

It doesn't muddle it at all, it is still clear.

p.91 rule is not complete, it relies on the definition of what a 'retinue' is. That definition is made on p.48; and includes applying only to an IC.

I can see your consistency, but I feel it is ignoring the context in which the rules are written.

Gotta admit, Gaylord, you're consistent in your arguments..... not. First you say it doesn't matter if it's an IC or a UC and then you say it's only ICs. Both in the same post. Make up your frikkin' mind.

I dunno, but IMO the tyrant IS an upgrade character, and considering that all those upgrade characters only yield there units 1 KP, I would assume thats the case with the tyrant.

just to back up my reasoning:

the upgrade tank master SM guy (the name escapes me) is a good example. If his tank is destroyed, and he fails to recover from it, then (as an upgrade character) him and his tank only ocunt as 1 KP (as far as my reasoning and rules go). However, if he DOES get out, then it states in his rules that he reverts to an independent character, and so counts as an additional KP. The Hive tyrant does not turn into a IC, and im fairly sure that none of the other UC's in the game do either (I may be wrong), therefore I'd assume that since the tyrant does not turn into a IC, he is not an extra KP.

thats just my opinion.