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a lot of the dooooooom on the pp board seems to be from people talking about a loss of flavor ala special rules.
I'm going to withhold judgement until i can get a few games in.
reading all the doooooooooom is kinda entertaining though

egomine wrote:Jacks and Warcasters now have the new option of spending 1 focus to either stand up or remove any stationary effect (this is a direct kick in the nuts to Khador and Menoth cheese).

I like this a lot. This lets you keep your expensive warjack in the fight -albiet at a cost-. Not unreasonable considering that in a standard sized game - say 25 points (w/ avg 6WJ points), heavy jacks are almost 1/3 your army's points - in the old rules, knockdown pretty much made heavy jacks useless... which is why I'd only run them with Irusk. On warcasters, keep in mind that the standup is on YOUR turn and after whatever nasty your opponent has hammered your HQ with on their turn, after the knockdown. If the attack failed, this new rule lets you try and recaputre the initiative by going on the offense - albiet at reduced focus (or run away).

I'm not sure anyone is sad to see the "you can't do anything" combos like: "tempest" + 3x-ice cage, or the scourge + death chill. OTOH, Menoth's pop and drop is essentially unchanged.

I'm not a huge fan of the dumbing down but jacks are now the shiz and games should run a lot faster now.

malfred wrote:And how would you know unless you'd been there, hmm?

I was killing time at work before hopping on a plane to Pittsburgh. The only reason I have any Internet at all right now is because I got an iPhone last weekend. I won't get to see the new rules until Friday. This fething blows.

Can your iphone read pdfs?

dietrich wrote:And Combined Attacks are in there, but the whole unit does it together or no one does. No more 2-model CRAs for the bonus to hit..

Not true.

page 32 wrote:A units ranged attacks can be grouped in any manner, including multiple combined ranged attacks.

So it remains unchanged.

Guess they don't want some of us to see the test rules. I signed in to the test page on Monday and signed up for a password. Don't know why they could not use the existing username and password from the forum, but PP did not and created a special test page. As of This morning (Tuesday) I am still waiting for the password response.

Very fustrating when I see that several people on various forums have gotten access and are posting rules for various units.

I think PP has missed an opportunity to show some goodwill and just post the test rules in a place where they could be downloaded without all the hassel.

Warrior 50

Warrior 50 wrote:Guess they don't want some of us to see the test rules. I signed in to the test page on Monday and signed up for a password. Don't know why they could not use the existing username and password from the forum, but PP did not and created a special test page. As of This morning (Tuesday) I am still waiting for the password response.

Maybe it uses a different username because it uses a different database.

Then reques a new password and see if that email comes. Have you checked your spam box on your email account?

Metsuri wrote:

dietrich wrote:And Combined Attacks are in there, but the whole unit does it together or no one does. No more 2-model CRAs for the bonus to hit..

Not true.

page 32 wrote:A units ranged attacks can be grouped in any manner, including multiple combined ranged attacks.

So it remains unchanged.

I don't know how I mis-read that yesterday, but I did. Thanks for pointing it out. Makes those 2-man CRAs still very useful.

I see Invisibility has vanished from the game.

Also my spider sense tells me that Cryx arc-nodes are overpriced.

I think Cephalax may be taken by Four Star Syndicate now, not sure why you'd want to though 'cause they suck.

George: It is not so much that they are overpriced, but that the heavy jacks mostly got a huge discount, as they were grossly overpriced before. You can still take 1.5 bonejacks out of your "warjack points" before hitting the meat of your army points. I think this tones down the viability of bonejack spam. Most casters aren't effected so much. The coven is sad however, as they need 3-4 ideally, and spending 12 out of 25 points for bonejacks (with one free from their 4 WJ points) hurts.

I don't know why they gave Mortenbra such a rubbish WJ point rating. Ugh.

I think that 3 for a Stalker or Helldiver is spot on, it's 5 for a Defiler (with no Cankerworm synergy and a weapon that can potentially be ignored by certain units) thats right out. Look at some of the other faction's lights, all the Cryx arcnodes look to be about 1 point too much.

I completely agree about Mortenebra and Coven. E-Skarre and Goreshade look like winners though, oh and Boomhowler. I would definately buy a plastic Boomhowler & co.

I now understand why PP were keeping so stum about their tokens.

The WJ points just seem to be an attempt to balance the 'free' casters a bit. And it seems like (at least Cygnar) casters that make jacks better, in general, have fewer WJ points than casters who don't (compare Haley and Darius vs. Caine). Which makes sense - casters that make jacks better get less since each jack is a little better.

George: I think that the defiler -might- be overcosted, but he did get an extra pip of RAT. I don't recall bonejacks having MAT6 RAT5 in the old system. Also, a spd7 arcnode is such a force multiplier that I think that paying 2 points for the benefit of having it isn't outrageous.

George Spiggott wrote:I see Invisibility has vanished from the game.

Sounds like they have someone who used to work for Wiz Kids doing the new rules. Symboles for Abilities Sounds very Mage Knight ish to me. Mage Knight was fun until WK killed the game.

I still have not gotten a password response.

So I will have to rely on someone else to share.

Warrior 50

So is there any real way to reconcile these rules with hordes, so we can play them together? Or is it pretty much "old rules, wm vs hordes. New rules, wm vs wm only"?


Someone please explain to me, though, HOW infantry are supposed to work? So my unit consists of a leader and say 5 grunts. My grunts are "in formation" if they're within, say, 9" of the commander [his theoretical cmd is a 9].

Now if I want to charge, NONE of those guys can end their move more than 9" away from him? And it's moved model by model, right? So each one is hamstrung, held back by this radius of command. But if I move the commander first to extend the bubble up towards the enemy, if any of the grunt end up outside of it then they're going to end up running into cmd range instead of charging like I told them to?

This would be easy if it was as per the unit, meaning that at the end of the UNIT's move members had to be in command range - but it said to go model by model and that a model couldn't charge outside of the leader's command range. This seems to really hamstring infantry unless the enemy is only like 5" in front of your unit, and cavalry are screwed. If my cavalry are in a wide formation [say 2 grunts 9" out from the leader in the center] and I want to charge something to the right that's any distance away, how would I ever get that charge off?

Also, Reznik got kicked in the nuts pretty hard, looks like. Losing Witch hammer and Firestarter, with a change in how Perdition works [only jacks move], getting Enging of Destruction and losing his pathfinder for jacks spell.... ouch.

Harbinger and Kreoss/eKreoss look like they've just been sidegraded, though Harbinger lost a few special rules she gained arc nodes, but the global nerf of "have to sacrifice movement or action if knocked down but immune to knockdown before your activation", like in the Hail Mary or eKreoss slamming her forward.

Spellbound wrote:
Now if I want to charge, NONE of those guys can end their move more than 9" away from him? And it's moved model by model, right? So each one is hamstrung, held back by this radius of command. But if I move the commander first to extend the bubble up towards the enemy, if any of the grunt end up outside of it then they're going to end up running into cmd range instead of charging like I told them to?

No. You checked for formation at the start of the activation. So long as the grunt ends their
charge in formation they may still make their charge attack.

The check for out of formation = run is made at the start of the unit's activation.

Spellbound wrote:So is there any real way to reconcile these rules with hordes, so we can play them together? Or is it pretty much "old rules, wm vs hordes. New rules, wm vs wm only"?

I wouldn't try it. I'd say just play old rules wm vs. hordes.

malfred wrote:

Spellbound wrote:
Now if I want to charge, NONE of those guys can end their move more than 9" away from him? And it's moved model by model, right? So each one is hamstrung, held back by this radius of command. But if I move the commander first to extend the bubble up towards the enemy, if any of the grunt end up outside of it then they're going to end up running into cmd range instead of charging like I told them to?

No. You checked for formation at the start of the activation. So long as the grunt ends their
charge in formation they may still make their charge attack.

The check for out of formation = run is made at the start of the unit's activation.

That's exactly what I was talking about, the first part. So a grunt can't charge out of their leader's command radius, even if they started inside of it?

And check for running made at the start makes sense, but that, taking into account the other problem I'm talking about, does that basically mean that the leader has to charge first, and then everyone else follows?

Also, is the old elite cadre +1 Mat, Rat, and Cmd part of some universal rule now? I couldn't find it in the book but without it, it seems elite cadres have lost a LOT.

You CAN charge outside of your leader's command radius, but you can't make attacks.

On the following turn, of course, that model will have to run toward the unit commander.

So yeah, a unit's charge will generally be focused around a 8-9" area around a unit commander.

Interesting. Looks like you can charge the grunts out of formation first, and then follow up
with the Unit Commander or Officer last and run him up to make sure everyone is still in formation.

so what I'm saying is....



ABCDEF


C is the leader, with an 8" command radius. A charges forward and to the left say... 9". Now he's, for simplicity's sake, 9" away and out of command range.

Now, as the rest of the unit moves, the leader and the other grunts move up the exact same way. Say they're charging infantry ahead of them 9" or something.

Now, after they've ALL moved, they're all inside the command radius but that first guy, since he left it for a bit until the leader was moved, does he get to attack?

I guess I'm kind of checking for do you check after every model in the unit has moved, or individually? If it's individually, it seems you'd have to all charge the same thing that's not too far away to actually charge effectively.

Looking at rules, I think I'm wrong. You can't move outside of formation. A would have to
stop at the edge of the leader's command range.

So as it is, you do check for every model moved. I'd say lead with the Unit Commander is
your best bet for a good charge.

Lunatic Calm on the PP Boards says that you declare a charge, then RUN your Officer forward
is the best way to keep everyone in formation, move the command bubble forward, AND protect
the Officer (Officers don't get affected by Field Promotion).

None of my units have officers.

Ok so leader goes first, ideally, then the troopers follow so that they end their movements in command range of the leader, and then can attack.

This actually works, I think, because now that anyone in the unit can be a leader, you can put your leader out front so that this becomes possible.

Killing leaders seems like a good tactic still, though, as when the next guy gets promoted they might not be in an ideal position, and/or might leave members out of formation.

Rhoven
MB
TFG UA
Idrian UA

Those are officers.

You are making it to harder than what it is. A unit moves as one. Each model can move different location but you move the unit at one time before moving on to attacking.

No, we understand that part. We were trying to figure out how movement and attacking
worked with charges and the new command rules.

Mal - since the unit activates as one, you don't have to worry about command until the end of activation. Since the unit has to stay within command range (and effectively moves at the same time) the unit should never have a legal move that leaves one model outside command range unless somehow they got hooked by terrain.

Unless I missed something and there's an activation sequence for units moving.

Under Activating Units, second paragraph

"When a model in a unit begins its normal movement during its unit's activation, determine if it is in formation. If it is in formation, it must move so that it does not become out of formation."

Yeah, I think you guys have it right. You generally want to charge/run/move with the leader first. He can go anywhere without formation restriction.

The rest of the unit can then do what it wants as long as it ends up back in formation.

And, you are allowed to check if you are in formation or not at any time during the units activiation.