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Has anyone thought about using an Imperial gun line against DoC? I know it's kind of cheesy, but if you throw 3 units of handgunners, some crossbowmen and a hellblaster onto the table, screen yourself with hills or forest, set up the lawn chairs and just blast away like 2,500 points of inebriated hillbillies, I'm not sure if any daemons list I've ever seen could stand up to that. To take out greater daemons, you could either try to shoot them to pieces with a cannon or flank them with some inner circle knights w/lord.
just putting it out there; I've never seen such an army against daemons, but I'm convinced it would work pretty well.

Gelatinous Cube wrote:Has anyone thought about using an Imperial gun line against DoC? I know it's kind of cheesy, but if you throw 3 units of handgunners, some crossbowmen and a hellblaster onto the table, screen yourself with hills or forest, set up the lawn chairs and just blast away like 2,500 points of inebriated hillbillies, I'm not sure if any daemons list I've ever seen could stand up to that. To take out greater daemons, you could either try to shoot them to pieces with a cannon or flank them with some inner circle knights w/lord.
just putting it out there; I've never seen such an army against daemons, but I'm convinced it would work pretty well.

You really can't rely purely on shooting as the daemons are very mobile and flesh hounds in particular are relatively resilient to shooting (and even a few of them can easily beat down a shooty unit). It's good to have some tough stuff around so you can at least threaten daemon combat units. In essence that means that you bring in lector /w speculum and waltar and at least 1 steam tank. Depending what other characters you run, it may not be a bad idea to bring 1 ranked swordsman unit too to act as a bodyguard (and you get detachment shooters in this case too, which is a bonus). You'll may also need some knights to work as fast support units.

But, yeah, tooled* empire certainly has some chances vs daemons.
(*note that tooled doesn't mean pure gunline necessarily)

yea, pure gunlines never work. They need to have at least 2-3 fully ranked blocks of infantry to clear out whatever gets to the line and to deal with the faster moving enemies.

I would think a balanced Tomb Kings army would fare very well against all 3 armies.

They outmaneuvre their oppoents, have an answer for every big-nasty in the game, DE's have to weather a storm of Screaming Skulls, If the Kings end up in a combat they just really don't look like they can win, they just heal their way through it.

Ushabti can really ruin an opponents day, the same with a Bone Giant.

24inch charge range can isolate and hammer flamers. (Chariots AND Heavy Cav)

40 inch effective move can march block a good portion of the opponent.

King in a chariot Crown of Command, Skulls of the foe
Charios have the icon of the sacred eye

2 liche priests
1 has the cloak/jar
other is mounted with staff of ravening

15 Horsemen, with warbanner or Banner of undying leigon, both are acceptable.

20 skeleton warriors
20 skeleton spearmen
20 skeleton archers
5 light cav
Scorpion
Screaming Skull Catapult.
Bone Giant
Ushabti

EZ gaem.

Leith wrote:People say daemons are a really good army but they arent, the reason they do so well is because the list is broken, ie it breaks all the normal conventions of warhammer. Most players have to make a major shift in thinking to beat the army and then they still have trouble because it doesnt adhere to the same rules that theirs does.

Maybe that's point of Daemons because they are from an alternative realm that breaks or doesn't adhere to the same rules.

pAgan wrote:

Leith wrote:People say daemons are a really good army but they arent, the reason they do so well is because the list is broken, ie it breaks all the normal conventions of warhammer. Most players have to make a major shift in thinking to beat the army and then they still have trouble because it doesnt adhere to the same rules that theirs does.

Maybe that's point of Daemons because they are from an alternative realm that breaks or doesn't adhere to the same rules.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

What they really need to do is fix the other armybooks to a reliable standard. I guess that GW wanted to change the dynamic of the armybooks*, starting with HE.

Which, of course, was a stupid idea. Because now we who don't play DE, VC, DoC, etc. have to wait for our books to get updated so that we can get our super cheese combos, to the point where DoC cheese is negated by other armies cheese.


*Meaning more competitive armybooks, perhaps?

I don't know about any army being better per say, I do however think that some army books allow you to build a good list with no intellegent effort. Not that the top players don't put thought into their lists, its simply that you can go eany meany miny moe and pick out a decent list. Compare that with other armies, especailly the older books like skaven or tomb kings, and you have very subtle builds and based on people's expereince. If i play Orcs and Gobs for 5 years straight and learn every dirty nasty orky trick I can compete with any list, not win maybe, but at least make in interesting.

I have played O&G since 4th Ed.I have founf that all the so called top tier lists are not hard to beat because they are character dependent(Most of the Time).Having played since the days of herohammer it is not hard to see the strengths of these armies.Being shackled by so called crappy fluff rules has not stopped me from stomping all the big scary armies everyone plays.For the O&G players out there do not be discouraged by the negative remarks you get for playing an army that requires more tactics and strategy than the "Top Tier Lists.
Just my 2 cents worth on all the O&G bashing i see out there.

I haven't seen any unwinnable match ups. Somebody posted that VC with lots of raising is unwinnable for brets - I've played that matchup 3 times and won all 3. I'm a far from optimal player (I don't ponder warhammer tactics much, (40K is different), don't read much on the forums, don't know my opponent's codexes, don't have many "optimal models" (just old cheap knights and archers mostly), don't play much. Yet my win record is great, just because of the Multiple small unit shtick.

1) Deployment wins games. The one who determines the unit by unit matchups wins. MSU wins deployment.
2) There are only 6 turns and the game is won on points. When you have one or more sacrificial units for every hammer unit they have, there doesn't seem to be much they can do.
3) Combo charges, at least by brets and lizards, can destroy pretty much anything. They are very hard to avoid when your foe has twice as many units as you and has concentrated all their hammer units on your weakest points during deployment.


In short, I think any army that can run MSU is competitive.

Haven't played anything but brets and lizards though. And I've never played against daemons.