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GW doesn't really differentiate between "model" or "weapon of the model" in CC, both are the same thing. The weapon can't well attack unless there's a model holding it and it doesn't have a weapon profile entry like ranged weapons. Try assaulting through cover with Hunting Lances, then claiming that the model's I was reduced but the attack is still resolved at I5? It won't fly...

Spetulhu wrote:GW doesn't really differentiate between "model" or "weapon of the model" in CC, both are the same thing. The weapon can't well attack unless there's a model holding it and it doesn't have a weapon profile entry like ranged weapons. Try assaulting through cover with Hunting Lances, then claiming that the model's I was reduced but the attack is still resolved at I5? It won't fly...

It would fly with me, the hunting lance is a power weapon that strikes at I5, regardless of the models true Initiative, just like it's Strength characteristic. Any bonuses or penalties to the models Strength or Initiative when using a hunting lance have no effect on what stats the model will use to resolve it's attacks, which is 5.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:GW doesn't really differentiate between "model" or "weapon of the model" in CC, both are the same thing. The weapon can't well attack unless there's a model holding it and it doesn't have a weapon profile entry like ranged weapons. Try assaulting through cover with Hunting Lances, then claiming that the model's I was reduced but the attack is still resolved at I5? It won't fly...

It would fly with me, the hunting lance is a power weapon that strikes at I5, regardless of the models true Initiative, just like it's Strength characteristic. Any bonuses or penalties to the models Strength or Initiative when using a hunting lance have no effect on what stats the model will use to resolve it's attacks, which is 5.

Drunkspleen is, as ever, Correct.

Damn Ozzie Ninjas

Spetulhu wrote:GW doesn't really differentiate between "model" or "weapon of the model" in CC, both are the same thing. The weapon can't well attack unless there's a model holding it and it doesn't have a weapon profile entry like ranged weapons. Try assaulting through cover with Hunting Lances, then claiming that the model's I was reduced but the attack is still resolved at I5? It won't fly...

Actually Spetulhu would be correct. Drunkspleen simply stated, "it would fly with me." Why do you insist on adding extra words to the sentence?

...regardless of the models true Initiative, just like it's Strength characteristic

It's not written with this addition in the codex, so it should not be read assuming this addition.

You honestly raise good points for an argument of hunting lance fluff, but thats not what is being questioned here. We are simply questioning the RAW. and further reference to the codex and rulebook have pretty clearly pointed out that a weapons stats become the models stats, and that Furious Charge give a bonus to the models stats as well. So Rough Riders with Kamir will make their first charge at a Strength and Initiative of 6.

Actually, nothing states that weapons striking at a specific strength replaces the models characteristics. Where does it say that?

Your entire argument is "oh but it wont work like that bawwww!" when it does work, because the rules in the codex are an exception to the normal rules that say you use the models Strength and Initiative, you instead use S5/I5 as per the codex.

guynamedFleck wrote:

...regardless of the models true Initiative, just like it's Strength characteristic

It's not written with this addition in the codex, so it should not be read assuming this addition.

You honestly raise good points for an argument of hunting lance fluff, but thats not what is being questioned here. We are simply questioning the RAW. and further reference to the codex and rulebook have pretty clearly pointed out that a weapons stats become the models stats, and that Furious Charge give a bonus to the models stats as well. So Rough Riders with Kamir will make their first charge at a Strength and Initiative of 6.

I'm fully aware it's not written, I mention it because it's implicit within the rest of the rule, which tells you that the hunting lance is a power weapon that resolves it's attacks at strength and initiative 5, it does not include any caveats regarding what the users strength or initiative may be, it will simply always be used as though the statistics were 5.

The benefits of furious charge are applied to a model increasing the model's strength and initiative, but if they are using a hunting lance the bonuses are inconsequential since you resolve the attacks at strength and initative 5 per the hunting lance rules.

But surely you must be able to modify those values if there's some other rule interfering? The lance and relic blade just say "resolved at", not "always and unmodifiable". I'll go with the KISS principle - the model counts as having those stats when using said item in the right way.

Assaulting through cover is broken if one claims there's both a model's I and weapon's I, after all. If there was any defensive ability that subtracted "attacker strength" for wounding people would claim that too was just the model, not the weapon. Errata material, end of story.