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I never model grenades on my models, I just dont see the reason to it since I dont want my models to look cluttered with equipment. I use the wysiwyg rule to the extent of armour, weapons and obvious wargear such as jetpacks and the like.

Sure do, but I'm not strict about it. I don't mind if their standard wargear isn't represented, but all options should be accurately represented. I also don't mind 'counts as' as long as it's used uniformly.

Proxies on the other hand... I've said it before and I'll say it again. NO Proxies, NO Exceptions!

If the model automatically comes with specific gear in its profile, i.e. SM Boltgun, bolt pistol, grenades, then there's no reason to model every single piece of equipment. It's the special stuff that you pay extra points for that is important.

I can see the WYSIWYG argument for grenades when using the last codex, but not the new one. Aside from that, I generally try to stick with it as much as possible now. I've even been tearing old models apart so I can "fix" them.

Also, magnetizing and other methods of modeling are NOT easy for everyone. Just because it's something one individual finds easy and does all the time, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone in the hobby. Just my $0.02.

KaloranSLC wrote:Also, magnetizing and other methods of modeling are NOT easy for everyone. Just because it's something one individual finds easy and does all the time, it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone in the hobby. Just my $0.02.

I agree converting with green stuff could be to difficult for some folk. But saying that using magnets is to difficult, I just don't buy. I just magnetized my first model. The first one I needed to do. It isn't perfect, but I took time and was careful and it turned out pretty well. The only way to get better at something is to try. It really isn't that hard. I would argue that the effort of building an entire army dwarfs the complexity of magnetizing a couple larger models.

ixlar wrote:I agree converting with green stuff could be to difficult for some folk. But saying that using magnets is to difficult, I just don't buy. I just magnetized my first model. The first one I needed to do. It isn't perfect, but I took time and was careful and it turned out pretty well. The only way to get better at something is to try. It really isn't that hard. I would argue that the effort of building an entire army dwarfs the complexity of magnetizing a couple larger models.

I've italicized what I felt to be important to my point. I don't disagree that magnetizing is a good idea. I plan on doing so when I have the time (and tearing apart my drop pod to magnetize the doors), however... it's the time constraint that some people - who just want to enjoy the hobby - don't always have at their immediate disposal; they have to make the decision between their army or their magnets. Just a thought to avoid comments that could be seen as condescending toward those of less fortunate circumstances (ability, time, etc.).

::edit for clarity::

I hear what you are saying. Just didn't take me that long and wasn't that hard. I'm not especially gifted and I don't have a ton of time either. I work a full time job as well as have a bunch of other issues that are a drain on my time.

I think the bigger point you're hinting at is what is expected of people that play. If someone expects a lot out of their army and takes the time to make it good, they may expect the same from their opponent (he may also not care, and just enjoy playing). With 40k being a hobby, not a job, I think it's a little unfair to expect a whole lot from people, though it is nice when someone ponies up.

I do my best to have the models appropriately represented with meltaguns, plasma guns etc...

However, the meltabombs that appear on sprues (like the Assault Marine sprue in the Battleforce) generally look silly on the model due to their cumbersomeness. To counteract this, I sometimes feel the urge to put ammo packs on models and say melta bombs are in there. (future tech, small bombs whatever fluff I can think of)

You know, I have about 2000 points of Marine and Gurd, and 700 or so of Grey Knights. And I've yet to actually get a melta bomb, since I don't use Assault Marines or Devestators. Hmmm.

Must buy some. Most folks I play are fine with being told a unit has Melta Bombs, but I just know I'll get someone who throws a hissy fit over it.

I used to be TFG and proxied alot, as i was 10 and did have alot of money, but now that im older, i have alot everything modeled or magnetised [i offer a cheap service on that, chech it out Right here for cheap magnetising on models.

Im ok with tactical squad has lascannon instead of missile or something like that with weapons, but it must be able to be seen in the squad, [i use mind war alot ], but im not ok with these killa kanz are battlewagons are something like that.

Yeah, I'm a bit of a WYSIWYG nazi with my own stuff, not with armies I face.

George Spiggott wrote:not with armies I face.

No offence to those out there but im afraid that coke canz arnt killa kanz or the like, GW's lawyers would have shut that down in the 90's.

And a tissue box isnt a land raider [seen someone do that ]

skkipper wrote:
that is a good point about stuff the guys come with.

I am willing to bet 99% of all CSM armies don't have the bolter, bolt pistol, and ccw modeled.

Yea I play CSM and my stock CSM all have bolter, bolt pistol, and ccw modeled as well as the rags with the grenades and stuff on them as standard coz its better to be safe than sorry. Because I'm reasonably new to the game and not very rich none of my models are painted either but all the games I've played have been very lenient on WYSIWYG as long as everything has been clarified before hand, and yes I've played with proxy models like using lego as a rhino before lol

I think WYSIWYG is an important way to promote good game play and good hobbying skills. There are small things that can be let go or ignored, but people using Rhinos as Land Raiders, or other outlandish stunts stretches patience and credulity.

Scott

I always use WYSIWYG because it helps gameplay. People should be able to glance at your mini's and see what they have without having to crossreference with your army list and/or ask you. I also paint all squads with nice clear squad markings so it's obvious which guys are together.

IMO it is just common courtesy and it speeds up gameplay (I play fast), it's one of those things that people can exploit (oh actually that guy has a heavy bolter not a lascannon) and that annoys me. I won't have a go at anyone if they play it fair but if I think they are trying to exploit it for there own gain then yeh, I'll call them on it.

I do try and follow it as best i can, if i need to add something for a permanent change i will get that model add it on and it will be just dandy.

i use Counts as alot if i dont actually have the army, for example my Dkok, i have a flakk 88 and another german artillery gun counting as earthshaker cannons, because £70 for one is just not my cup of tea i also do that with tanks aswell but only when i dont have them.

If i do, do the above then i always inform the opponent, and expect them to do the same, its when they start having a go at me because they dont want them to have said equipment because they are loosing even though they agreed at the start of the game

The Grundel wrote:I use it strictly for my own conversions but do not enforce it on others. I got screwed over in a tournament once because of it.

I was playing a kid who was losing at in turn 5 he tried to death or glory one of my squads with a crusader and I melta bombed it and destroyed it. He threw a fit because the melta bombs weren't on my model. Even though he was given a print out of my list that said melta bombs on it. He said "If I knew it had those I wouldn't have death or gloried." Judge said I couldn't use the melta bombs against him and so his crusader hosed me and the kid won. I definitely learned my lesson about wissywug.

dude you got nerfed on that one tourni rules say wsywig counts for weapons and units (power fists / power swords,jump packs ,big stuff etc ) grenades and melta bombs are not included as they are suppost to be too small,as long as you paid the points and its in your army list then you are good .
i would have told the kid to go boil his head and the judge was an ass too for not knowing this.

all my guys are correct as you see them but if someone wants all girly about grenades ........man they arn't worth playing ........it is only a game i play for fun and relaxation and if can't do that why bother?


sorry dude

darkangels_rule wrote:dude you got nerfed on that one tourni rules say wsywig counts for weapons and units (power fists / power swords,jump packs ,big stuff etc ) grenades and melta bombs are not included as they are suppost to be too small,as long as you paid the points and its in your army list then you are good .
i would have told the kid to go boil his head and the judge was an ass too for not knowing this.

Each tournament organiser is well within his (or her) rights to determine how the rules work for the tournament. Yes, a lot of tournaments will say that WYSIWYG does not apply to grenades or (physically) small upgrades like a Necron Phylactery, but at the same time that doesn't mean that all tournaments are run like that.

Personally, I try to model everything except grenades, but I like to have grenade pouches on models that can have them - after all, if there's a small pouch on the model, I can simply say "Those are grenade pouches, they have meltabombs inside."

In other words, I model all standard weaponry and all significantly-sized wargear, ensure I have an explanation for all small wargear which could be included but makes the model look fiddly, and will go over the equipment of everything which isn't obvious before the game begins.

As with most things, I hold my opponents to a slightly lower standard than me - I'm happy with my Marine opponent's Tactical squad having a plasma gun on the model but saying it's a melta before the game, but I wouldn't be happy with the plasma gun turning out to be a melta when it's six inches away from the side armour of my Russ.

Right now I can't afford to WYSIWYG, I've just started and I had to proxy a looted wagon (with a toy army truck) just to make up 1500pts to play a proper game! Right now all my Nobs have PKs, my warboss and the other "counts-as-a-bigmek" warboss supposedly have cybork bodies and everyone who can carry extra gak hypothetically does just to make up points.

My FLGS's clerk is a sculptor (he's damn good) but he buys all the goddamn greenstuff before they go on the shelf, so I've yet to dip my toe into making new weapons for my boys. And since I'm new to the hobby I don't have extra bits lying around.

So if anyone's gonna get anal about my army not being WYSIWYG then I'm gonna have a problem.

Nevermind, forget I was here.

Phloop wrote:Right now I can't afford to WYSIWYG, I've just started and I had to proxy a looted wagon (with a toy army truck) just to make up 1500pts to play a proper game! Right now all my Nobs have PKs, my warboss and the other "counts-as-a-bigmek" warboss supposedly have cybork bodies and everyone who can carry extra gak hypothetically does just to make up points.

My FLGS's clerk is a sculptor (he's damn good) but he buys all the goddamn greenstuff before they go on the shelf, so I've yet to dip my toe into making new weapons for my boys. And since I'm new to the hobby I don't have extra bits lying around.

So if anyone's gonna get anal about my army not being WYSIWYG then I'm gonna have a problem.

Personally I don't think orks should have a standard trukk or whatever anyway. I think GW should sell an ork looted upgrade set which allows people to orkify any toy or model vehicle.

I do my best to make my armies WYSIWYG but with some armies like Dark Eldar where i don't have access to the direct only items (Warriors with Dark Lances). I don't enforce it on other players as i know a major part of the players at my FLGS don't have the income to buy tons of models or the experience to convert them. As long as they inform me at the beginning of a game i don't care.

I follow the same sentiment as most of the people here. WYSIWYG in the big stuff like my big shootas, sluggss and power klaws but not on the small stuff like stikkbombz or even cybork bodies (How the hell would I kit out 8 nob bikers to look like cyborks anyway?)

HOWEVER

The big stuff does need to be accuratley represented. I do hate when people echew laz cannons for a guy with a toothpick or something riddiculous (I read about a lego rhino earlier back). Why is that? That sort of proxy takes so much away from the game as a whole. I mean, how would you feel if you were watching hte end battle of Lord of the Rings, that is, the charge at the gates of Moria but afew of the Uruks were proxied with lego men. It truly ruins the experience.

Now if someone had an autocannon and wanted to say they had a lazcannon, well, I allow it only if they're using it as a test. If the person repeatedly will be using that autocannon as a lazcannon I would evenualy like to see a lazcannon.

The only instance where I think its okay to echew WYSIWYG is on vehicles as not everyone knows how to magnetize. Granted, I play Orks, and my vehicles are pretty straight forward, but I can see where IG may want different arms loadouts on their Leman Russ tanks but only one model.

KaloranSLC wrote:
I've italicized what I felt to be important to my point. I don't disagree that magnetizing is a good idea. I plan on doing so when I have the time (and tearing apart my drop pod to magnetize the doors), however... it's the time constraint that some people - who just want to enjoy the hobby - don't always have at their immediate disposal; they have to make the decision between their army or their magnets. Just a thought to avoid comments that could be seen as condescending toward those of less fortunate circumstances (ability, time, etc.).

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this at all.

Magnetising some weapon options on a tank is quicker and cheaper than building a second tank. Saying that it takes too long or is too difficult is not an excuse for proxying.

Not to mention that there are simpler ways. On rhino-variants you can simply not glue the top hatch and swap them. On a predator turret you can cut off the pivoting tabs and stick a lump of tack in - that lets you swap the main gun. There are plenty of ways of giving yourself options.

If you really don't want to magnetise or buy an additonal model then just use the model as what it is.

If you dont have the time or feel you are not up to it, either buy/build one of each or pay someone to do it.

In my Sig, i magnetise at a cheap rate, and others offer a similar service, if you dont have the time, ask us to do it for you, thats what we are hear for.

I only play friendly games, so stand ins abound! I try to avoid it wherever possible, but my CSMs frequently play against Eldars with 'Sentinel' Warwalkers, or IG with Hormagaunt guardsmen!

I need to keep asking what the hell im shooting at most of the time, but thats ok...

I 'm strict about WYSIWYG in my own army, but don't care about the opponent's as long as he tells me what's suposed to be what BEFORE the game begins.

I don't play tournaments, although I might start going to some just to play with different people (assuming prizes are mostly just bragging rights.) How strict do they tend to be on WYSIWYG? I'm sitting down and upgrading the paint job on my tyranids and I'm debating if I want to give myself the headache of making sure all the glands, spiky-bits, and chitin look perfect (in particular the spiky bits = flesh hooks = frag grenades,) or just stick with the (I suspect rather common) approach of 'This is what all of these genestealers are equipped with. Would you like a copy to look at during the game?' I'm going to be fairly strict with my MCs with one exception: I purchased and painted up the very nice Malanthrope model, but I use it as a Hive Tyrant instead.

I follow WYIWYG as closely as I can, and I expect it to a degree from my opponents. However, as long as the differences aren't deceptive (eg proxying a rhino as a raider), and all non-wysiwyq or counts-as models are clearly explained to me beforehand, I don't enforce 100% WYSIWYG on opponents.

I too try to keep as close as possible with WYSIWYG. I'm not always consistent (usually just to try things out) but I do try as much as possible. I personally don't care if those I play are or aren't. So long as they don't try to screw me over severely with last second "Oh, he actually has this" sorts of deals. I'm just getting some friends into the hobby, so for guys fresh to the game, I try and stay as lenient as possible. One of the worst things (in my mind) to do to someone brand new to the hobby is whine about rules to them.

Side question however for the masses.
For my Dark Angels, I use the Ezekiel model for my Librarian. I put a pistol holster on him, so would that count as WYSIWYG for pistol and close combat weapon as he holds the sword with two hands.