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Oh er perhaps not lol maybe I was thinking of the SM view...

About the dark color scheme- IF you read the fluff it says that the Tau prefer night fighting. Therefore it makes sense to wear dark colors, as oppossed to the bright yellow colors that say "Here I am, Shoot me now!"
Also, I dont think they are the same kind of stealth suit. the current ones are Xv15 and the new ones are Xv25

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 01/23/2006 3:10 AM

Posted By wight_widow on 01/22/2006 5:54 PM

Hamil, yeah...(don't know if I'm spelling it right either) He's one reason I'm looking forward to the next Batman movie. After having voiced the character on Batman: TAS for years, I'm looking forward to seeing him as a live Joker.

I still think they should have got Crispin Glover as the Joker.  I mean c'mon - he wrote, directed, and starred in a movie in which the whole cast had down syndrome except for him.  Can't you imagine the Joker doing something like that?

wight_widow: Where'd you get your info? Recently Paul Bettany has been mentioned in conjunction to The Joker. Some other names mentioned as potential Jokers: Sam Rockwell, Sean Penn, Adrien Brody, Benicio Del Toro, Tim Roth, Jim Carey, Crispin Glover, Christopher Eccelston, Jason Lee, Johnny Depp, and even Michael Keaton. Nowhere though have I found any confirmations, not on AICN, or any of the various other fanboy sites, and any mention of Mark Hamil as The Joker was purely casual speculation.

Abadabadoobaddon: Personally I think Glover would make a kickass Riddler were they to ever visit that character. I don't think he has enough screen charisma to play The Joker, but he's got that creepy nerdiness which I think would suit The Riddler.

Posted By Hellbug on 01/25/2006 7:54 AM
Abadabadoobaddon - "In 40k, much like in real life, there are no "good guys". Most races have both good qualities and bad qualities (even Chaos)."

How does Chaos have good qualities? They thrive on death, depradation, daemons and sacrificing lambs... but I guess I see your point. Erm, about the other races... except Dark Eldar... Chaos and Dark Eldar.. good qualities?

"Good" can be pretty subjective... I don't know what Abby has in mind, but I think one quality of Chaos that I consider to be good is that they've left behind the Imperial dogma to follow their own path. You might even say they turned against the Imperium in order to seek enlightenment. I doubt any of those who turned to Chaos did so because they woke up one morning and said, "Today I'm going to be eeeevil."

Pinning any "good" qualities on the Dark Eldar is a lot trickier, at least as the current fluff stands, but even they aren't motivated by pure evil. They're motivated by fear. And fear can make people, who might not otherwise, do some very bad things.

I have to say that I some what looked at the Tau as ok too, but then I began to really think about what they do. Ok they go to a planet and say hey give in to our rules and beliefs or we make you do it by force. I dont really see that as too friendly. I mean I guess its better then just killing everything without saying anything. To put it into history terms look at the Romans.

So I think they are more of a lesser of a bunch of evils.

I don't think the Tau were ever meant to be percieved as the "good guys" but the last codex kind of put that idea into everyone's head. GW doesn't like the idea of purely good or evil, everything has a shade of grey and I think that's one of the reasons I love 40k fluff so much. I think what they are doing with the Tau now is kind of like how they reworked the Eldar fluff back in 3rd edition. They shifted the Eldar away from being these benevolent caretakers into enigmatic aliens with an extreme superiority complex who are only out for their own survival. Tau are still unique in 40k lore in that they are the only race (to my knowledge) who isn't out to utterly masacre all others. They wish for peace though conquest, not genocide.

SPOILER ALERT: Another interesting note: In the Xenology book, which is AMAZING by the way, during the disection of a Tau ethereal you find out that the diamond shaped organ in their forehead may actually be a pheremone gland of sorts, and the Tau's concept of the Greater Good may be nothing more than chemical signals coming from Ethereals that make all other Tau utterly devoted to them. Not sure if Xenology is considered "official" but if this is true, it puts a radical new spin on the whole Tau race. The Greater Good, this benevolent ideal that the Tau believe to be the only "true path" is really just biological imperatives of a master caste subtley manipulating it's slaves. Cool huh?

 

I think the problem is the release date of the codex..

When desiegned the catch phrase "for the greater good" would send shivers down most peoples spine, especially anyone who grew up in eastern europe. Thats the word for word excuse given for all kinds of brutal acts, mass starvations, brutal military crackdowns..its inherintly an evil phrase.

Then for good or bad, the outlook changed. A certain leader of a first world nation began using that phrase to describe their struggle with fanatical theocratic societies (with genocidal intent), and why they had to do the things they did..and why they had to bring their own culture and system of government to them. (don't wanna debate on this being good or bad, just noting it happened)

World events changed people from looking at the tau as Communists out to conquer new lands for their mighty fearless leaders..to Western society struggling to bring freedom and democracy to the most evil regime humanity has ever known.

Now they are being forced to be a lil more blunt. The tau are assimilators..they are not the federation.

Yes sound much more like the Dominion.  Join us for the greater good or we'll sic the Jem Hadar on you. 

The Tau combine aspects of American and Japanese society to create a society that is totally homogenous yet able to accomodate diversity. I'll even go so far as to grant that what they may be doing may actually be in the best interests of the entire galaxy. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're the "good guys". It's like the Wall Street economist telling a bunch of steel workers that, too bad, you're no longer relevant to our economy so go look for new jobs. Just because you're doing the right thing for everyone doesn't mean that you're a good guy.

Why do posit that they support diversity?  Conformance to the Greater Good  sounds like a clarion call to stifle free expression and diverse opinions.  

They absolutely support diversity. Gue'la, Vespids, Kroot, Demiurg, etc all coexist peacefully within Tau space. There is also evidence of freedom-- Gue'la defectors are allowed to continue worshipping the Emperor, for instance. It may not be encouraged, but so long as it doesn't interfere with the broader operations of the Empire I can't see the Tau caring that much.

There's a difference between supporting diversity and supporting diversity as long as you obey us unquestioningly, follow our rules, fight who we say to fight, etc etc... Again, I really want to read the new codex though before making up my mind completely about the Tau. In a universe of relative morality though, they are about ten thousand more times benevolent than the Eldar (use everyone else to our ends cause we're weak, unless we can just kill them) Chaos (kill everyone who won't convert) or the philosophy of all other races which is simply kill everyone who isn't us. And sometimes us as well if there is no one else to fight (Orks)...

yes i think jfrazell's anonlogy is much better the tau sounds a lot like the dominion. But true the new codex could change the background of the tau.

Hmm... I see what you mean by 'For the Greater Good!' being an evil phrase.. kinda remids me of the Soviet Union. That could have a lot of meanings to it. Killing a whole city because they would have erupted into a rebellion would be seen as evil, but ineveitably it would be a good thing. Sort of...

But still, you don't see Tau warships eradicating planets from orbit and worshipping a thousand year old dude with cables coming out of every orifice and persecuting their own kind (Erm, except for Farsight) as the Imperium does. Looking forward to the new codex, but still apprehensive. Also, what is 'Xenology'? The text, not the word.

Posted By skyfyre on 02/17/2006 9:44 PM
There's a difference between supporting diversity and supporting diversity as long as you obey us unquestioningly, follow our rules, fight who we say to fight, etc etc...

You're so picky! Anyways, you try to become a citizen of any country without following their rules and see how far it gets you. The Tau aren't altruistic saints; they are rational and self-interested. At the same time they are relatively benevolent, etc. They are no more immoral than  and of the great superpower nations (USA, UK) ever seen on Earth. As for any possible domestic "suppression", remember these aren't humans we're dealing with here. You know how the Japanese are stereotypically seen as never wanting to disagree with one another? The Tau are really like that, to a degree that no human can be. Individually, a Tau can set aside his own welfare for the benefit of other Tau. That's something humans don't do easily.

I agree with Zzarchov that the only change here is that they're making it more overt. The Tau were always designed to be dark.

It's an expansionist empire using communistic lingo because it sounds nicer. Just like with the Soviet Union and China. While many of the everyday citizens believed in the dogma, the government was never actually communist. Power was always concentrated in the hands of the few, and they were actually fascist dictatorships (Stalin, Mao) for most of their existence. Hitler called his party the National Socialist party, but they sure weren't socialists.

When I first read the original Tau codex I figured this was the case. GW was just being relatively subtle about it, though anyone familiar with the most powerful "communist" countries within the last century would see the obvious connection.

Also note in the most recent WD.  Alien races within the Empire that did not submit to the wisdom of the Greater Good were destroyed.  Thats a classical definition of empire right there.

 

Nope Tau just have better lighting now (hence the "less dark" look), seemingly counterbalanced by ethereals lifting weights

 

Don't mind them dark, just keep them from being...Gothicy (shudder).

Nope Tau just have better lighting now (hence the "less dark" look), seemingly counterbalanced by ethereals lifting weights

Are you kidding? The new fluff suggests that the Tau force people to join the empire and subdue worlds. Less dark look? Hmm... from sandy robes to black velvet looks darker to me. But at the same time, Tau in dark armour look just cool... Would like it if they (GW) decided that they want to make the Tau dark, just go the whole hog and make Dark Tau. Heh that would be pretty cool.... Ethereals with psychic powers.

To address your statement of 'to chunky!'

I think the new stealth suits are awesome, they remind me of the female Zentradi power armour from Robotech/Macross. They tipped the scales on my decision to collect Tau, though I would like to see a sleeker version of the basic GW plastic crisis suit.

Usiel-secret Gue'la convert

"Are you kidding? The new fluff suggests that the Tau force people to join the empire and subdue worlds."

As far as I'm concerned so did the old fluff.  It was just more subtle, and a lot of people didn't get it or willfully ignored the implications because they wanted Tau to be good guys.

Exactly.

Also, what is 'Xenology'? The text, not the word.

It's a new artbook/storybook out from Black Libaray. It tells the story of a secret research facility that held aliens for study. (something very much frowned upon by the Ordo Xenos apparantly). They are forced to shut down within 10 days and dispose of their "alien zoo". In order to get the most out of each specimin the Magos Biologis begins disecting each captive xeno.

It's really worth a buy. The disection reports look like they came out of a medical textbook and theres a TON of fluff about the different races. Excellant artwork and a very creepy storyline that brings it all together.

Posted By jfrazell on 02/21/2006 3:48 PM

Also note in the most recent WD.  Alien races within the Empire that did not submit to the wisdom of the Greater Good were destroyed.

Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

The majority of 40K fluff is written from the Imperial point of view. I haven't read the new Tau fluff, but if it is too, then it's no surprise that they'd be made to look like the bad guys. The Imperium is a fascist xenophobic (literally!) state and pretty much everything they write is propaganda. So they'll make everyone else look totally evil to rile up the people against them (that and a strong outside threat makes people less likely to look at corruption/threats within). But that's if it's written from the Imperial POV.

And of course there's good in the other races!
Nurgle- where would we be without sickness and decay? Without sickness there is overpopulation, and then nobody's happy. And without decay, new life can't flourish.
Tzeentch- Without change, life is stagnant and boring. In fact there is no life without change. Evolution is the essence of Tzeentch.
Slaanesh- Sex, drugs, and rock n' roll. Nuff said.
Khorne- War is evil. But in the grim darkness of the future there is only war. So everybody directly or indirectly worships Khorne. Which makes everybody evil. But the true worshippers of Khorne are at least honest about it. "To thine own self be true." And there's some goodness in not living a lie. Or at least purity. Sort of.
Black Legion- The Imperium is totally evil, so trying to bring them down the only way you can is kinda good. Fight the power! Viva la revolucion!
Dark Eldar- Okay, maybe not good, but sympathetic. The poor guys have no souls. They got eaten up by Slaanesh. So now they live in a miserable empty soullessness that can only be appeased by devouring the souls of others. They're jonesing addicts, but it's not their fault that they're addicts because they were born that way. Like original sin.
Imperium- Yes they're horrible fascists, but it's the only way humanity will survive. You can't fault people for wanting to survive, can you?
Tyranids- They're just hungry. Bugs are completely amoral, neither good nor evil.
Orks- Yes, they're horribly violent brutes, but they're spelling is funny!
Necrons- Poor Necrons. They got totally manipulated and used by the C'tan. They're the victims of the whole thing. Why are you trying to blame the victim? That's just cruel!
The C'tan- How dare you try to apply your puny mortal ethics to the Gods!?! You couldn't possibly understand the vasty plans of the immortals! Kneel and beg for mercy for this transgression! Besides, stars are tasty. I'd eat a star if I could.

MattBaby wrote:

"Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs."

Justified evil is still evil.

Show me the good.

What we call "evil" is merely ignorance. "Good" is simply that which one desires. - Plato (paraphrased)

There is a different idea of "Evil" and "Good" for each sentient being out there, and none of them are "correct". There is simply self-preservation, nothing more, nothing less.

Posted By ThisIsBatCountry on 02/26/2006 11:07 PM

MattBaby wrote:

"Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs."

Justified evil is still evil.

Omelettes are still tasty.

I agree with MattBaby. Tau are good guys; that is all. Curse my wicked naivete and love of objective good (because, don't you know? It's all about the confused grays that don't know which side they're on and stick with gray since it makes them more "interesting"!). But then you get all these guys who sound like college sophomores acting like they understand something others don't. Next thing you know there will be idiots questioning the fairytale utopian stories and how they were evi-....oh, nevermind.

Omelettes are still tasty.

And all those races are essentially 2nd Class Citizens within the Tau Empire. The Tau are not squeaky clean good guys. They're as grey as the rest of 'em.

BYE

AARGRH

If I wanted to play EVIL, I would have bought a Dark Eldar or Chaos army.