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You know what time it is? It is dictionary time! Yay

weapon

• noun 1 a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. 2 a means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself.

...So would i say a reinforced ram is a weapon? Yes, it allows a vehicle to tank shock when it normally couldn't (note Tank shock is classed as an Attack in the BGB)

edit and to all you say it needs to have a profile or be called a CC weapon shame on you all the rule asks is that it functions like a weapon.

Tri wrote:You know what time it is? It is dictionary time! Yay

weapon

• noun 1 a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. 2 a means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself.

...So would i say a reinforced ram is a weapon? Yes, it allows a vehicle to tank shock when it normally couldn't (note Tank shock is classed as an Attack in the BGB)

A dictionary definition of "weapon" has no actual bearing on the rules of Warhammer 40,000 definition of "weapon" for the purposes of a Weapon Destroyed result on the vehicle damage table.

So what do you do when you don't know the meaning of a word? You ask some one or look it up. Deployments a good one since its never explained in the BGB.

The trukk could be considered, in real life, a weapon. But, in 40k, it isn't, it's a vehicle.

Of course it's a weapon. It's purchased just like a weapon upgrade.

Is a spotlight a weapon since it allows you to see your target? And it's purchased just like a weapon upgrade is?

Tri wrote:So what do you do when you don't know the meaning of a word? You ask some one or look it up. Deployments a good one since its never explained in the BGB.

You look it up within the context of where the word is used. The example above of a Trukk being a weapon is case in point.

Hmm, the wreckin ball is defined as having str9, a range of 2" and it tells us it hits on a 4+. We are also told it cannot be used if the vehicle has moved over 12". Since no ap is listed we know it is ap -.

So............doesnt that pretty much define it as a weapon?




Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Hmm, the wreckin ball is defined as having str9, a range of 2" and it tells us it hits on a 4+. We are also told it cannot be used if the vehicle has moved over 12". Since no ap is listed we know it is ap -.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong....not having an AP listed is in NO WAY they same thing as AP -. If it was, then all CC weapons would have a-1 penalty for penetrating vehicles.

Okay I'll throw my 2 cents in. The difference between the killkannon and the deff rolla, wrecking ball, etc. Is that under the orks wargear section (you know the place where it tells you what everything does), which is listed before the points in the back. It classifies a killkannon as a weapon and eosn't for the Deff Rolla and Wrecking Ball, they are just vehicle upgrades.

P.S.-I don't have acess to the Ork Codex right now and am doing this all from memory. Would someone mind double checking that for me and providing a page number? I won't be able to till 9 or 10 PM.

KaloranSLC wrote:

Tri wrote:So what do you do when you don't know the meaning of a word? You ask some one or look it up. Deployments a good one since its never explained in the BGB.

You look it up within the context of where the word is used. The example above of a Trukk being a weapon is case in point.

Not really a trukk like all other vehicles is listed as vehicle in each codex. Even if you do class the vehicle as being a weapon the rule still kicks in to destroy weapons and upgrades that function like weapons on the vehicle.

arinnoor wrote:Okay I'll throw my 2 cents in. The difference between the killkannon and the deff rolla, wrecking ball, etc. Is that under the orks wargear section (you know the place where it tells you what everything does), which is listed before the points in the back. It classifies a killkannon as a weapon and eosn't for the Deff Rolla and Wrecking Ball, they are just vehicle upgrades.

P.S.-I don't have acess to the Ork Codex right now and am doing this all from memory. Would someone mind double checking that for me and providing a page number? I won't be able to till 9 or 10 PM.

Pages 89 and 93. Codex: Orks.

Thanks BlackSpike!

I have to agree with you that having no listed ap isnt the same as having ap -. I was more meaning the lack of ap to indicate that this was another clue to it being an assault weapon and I failed to think that people would take it to mean the ball was an ap - shooting weapon.

AP and cc have no relationship tho, ap only involves firing weapons and has no bearing whatsoever on the cc phase. Which might be one reason that there is no ap listed for the wreckin ball, since it is used in the assault phase... so it would seem the ball is an assault weapon. It would certainly appear to be more than a piece of wargear that adds an attack, since the vehicle has no attack str or profile at all without the ball. It is different from the pintel mounts or missiles already mentioned because those are firing weapons, not cc.

So what I am basically trying to say is that the wreckin ball appears to be a cc weapon, so that is why the entry doesnt pair up perfectly with the various vehicle shooting weapon entries.


Giving a truck a cc is just so wrong, but then thats the orcs for you.


Sliggoth

I'm not sure where the RAW argument will end up, but I am left with the following (oft quoted) phrase:
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck ...

Sliggoth wrote:I have to agree with you that having no listed ap isnt the same as having ap -. I was more meaning the lack of ap to indicate that this was another clue to it being an assault weapon and I failed to think that people would take it to mean the ball was an ap - shooting weapon.

AP and cc have no relationship tho, ap only involves firing weapons and has no bearing whatsoever on the cc phase. Which might be one reason that there is no ap listed for the wreckin ball, since it is used in the assault phase... so it would seem the ball is an assault weapon. It would certainly appear to be more than a piece of wargear that adds an attack, since the vehicle has no attack str or profile at all without the ball. It is different from the pintel mounts or missiles already mentioned because those are firing weapons, not cc.

So what I am basically trying to say is that the wreckin ball appears to be a cc weapon, so that is why the entry doesnt pair up perfectly with the various vehicle shooting weapon entries.


Giving a truck a cc is just so wrong, but then thats the orcs for you.

But...
A Wreckin' ball is NOT a CC weapon. A trukk/BW has no CC profile, nor can it be locked in CC. The Ball follows NONE of the CC rules (no base-to-base, no WS, no locking in CC, no bonus for charging, etc) except that it is used in the assault phase. It is just like how a Deffrolla has no CC profile and is used in the movement phase.

Alerian wrote:But...
A Wreckin' ball is NOT a CC weapon. A trukk/BW has no CC profile, nor can it be locked in CC. The Ball follows NONE of the CC rules (no base-to-base, no WS, no locking in CC, no bonus for charging, etc) except that it is used in the assault phase. It is just like how a Deffrolla has no CC profile and is used in the movement phase.

The Wrecking Ball special rules over-ride its need for the things you mention.
It could be given a profile, and then instantly over-ride it with it's rules, but they short-cut past that step.
It is given a range, rather than btb.
It is given a set a roll-to-hit rather than a WS vs WS, like grenades, or attacking moving vehicles.
No vehicles lock in CC, so it follows this rule exactly.

Originally, I thought that a Wrecking Ball did count as a weapon. I've changed my mind.

It's not a ranged weapon, because it's used in the assault phase. Also, it doesn't count as a 'weapon' for the number of weapons that can shoot due to the speed of the vehicle.

It's not a CCW, because the vehicle has no Weapon Skill, and as a result, can't be locked in Assault.

So, despite having a Strength, a fixed to-hit roll, and a range, it's not a weapon. Frankly, I forgot that it was used in the assault phase, not the shooting phase, and that it didn't count as a weapon being fired, both significant differences from a Hunter-Killer missile.

So it is not a weapon because it has no WS (it has a fixed roll to hit instead) and cannot be locked in CC?

I don't think it qualifies as either a ranged weapon or a close combat weapon.

While it strikes in the assault phase, a vehicle without a WS can't be locked in combat. Further, the Wrecking Ball has a 2-inch range, not a requirement to be in base to base. A vehicle doesn't fight in the Assault phase. Infantry can assault it, but the vehicle doesn't 'fight back'. While the Wrecking Ball could be used against the unit assaulting a vehicle, it doesn't have to. As a result, i don't think it qualifies as a close combat weapon.

Doesn't the vehicle have to be "engaged" in order to use the Wrecking Ball, though?

::edit
My bad. I misread another post. Ignore the bit above (did not delete for purposes of keeping context for Dietrich's post below).::

No, it just targets any unit within 2 inches. and, iirc, it just gets one shot against one unit, it doesn't get to take a swing at every unit within 2 inches.

Dietrich seems to understand my point.

Niether the Wreckin' ball, nor the Deffrolla follow the rules for Shooting or Assault. Niether has a ranged or CC profile. Niether utilizes a BS or WS. Also, they are not listed in the ranged weapons table in the back of the book, nor are they EVER classified as CC weapons.

GW would have to specificlly state that they are weapons that have a different profile/ability than normal weapons. However, GW has never labled them as weapons, so they simply remain vehicle upgrades with the ability to cause damage, just like the Tau Flechette Dischargers.

It's not a weapon, and neither is a deff rolla. You just point them out to me in the summary at the back of the book.

Tri wrote:Come on people read the BGB

3 Damage - Weapon Destroyed
Oneof the vehicle's weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed - ripped off by the force of the attack. If a vehicle has no weapon left, treat this result as an 'immobilised' result instead. This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles.

Does the Deff Rolla and Wreckin' Ball function as a weapon? Yes since they do damage, they are functioning as weapons.

Argument finished.

Of course it is a weapon by definition. While a "weapon" is never clearly defined in BRB, it does define 2 subcategories of weapons: Weapons and CC weapons. Simply because the wreaking ball does not fall into those subcategories does not negate the fact that it DOES fall into the more broad term "weapons"

p.61:"One of the vehicles weapons...."

So it does not limit what type of weapon.

it continues and ends

"...This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons"

You can attack with the wreaking ball, therefore it is a weapon. "weapons" can be destroyed, not just one subcategory of them.

Dracos wrote:"...This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons"

QFT

A wrecking ball does "function as a weapon" in that it rolls to hit, has a Strength value for armour penetration and causes damage.
Yes, it only works in certain circumstances (against vehicles within 2").

It is still a duck weapon

dietrich wrote:If an unfired HK missile counts as a weapon for Weapon Destoryed results, how does a Wrecking Ball not count as one? Both are vehicle upgrades. Both have a Str value, both have a fixed roll to inflict a hit, both have a range.

Can a BW move at Cruising Speed and use a Wrecking Ball?

So a Weapon Destroyed could be used against a Seeker Missile on a Tau vehicle?

NO.

Yes, I believe that you can indeed use Weapon Destroyed results against Seeker Missiles.

Che-Vito wrote:

dietrich wrote:If an unfired HK missile counts as a weapon for Weapon Destoryed results, how does a Wrecking Ball not count as one? Both are vehicle upgrades. Both have a Str value, both have a fixed roll to inflict a hit, both have a range.

Can a BW move at Cruising Speed and use a Wrecking Ball?

So a Weapon Destroyed could be used against a Seeker Missile on a Tau vehicle?

NO.

is it a vehicle upgrade? can it be used like a weapon?

Then YES.