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Well, I have seen an O&G list that resembles being competitive. It looks nothing like what the designers had in mind though. Build a list around 8 boar chariots. Not very fluffy, not very balanced. But it can actually kill things.

Psychology is actually a lot more forgiving than it used to be. I'm sure everyone has a story about entire 4th edition goblin armies running off the board first turn from one panic check. I think the problem is more that there is a huge increase in immune to psychology units. It make stuff that isn't seem really bad when in actuality everything is supposed to be like that. Additionally the goblin fear elves rule really needs to be reworked. With Vampires, Tomb Kings and Demons, there's about three or four armies which the Orc and Goblin fast cav doesn't fear and with leadership 6 getting important flank charges is a horrible gamble. There needs to be a huge reset where ItP is very rare and the stuff that is either very expensive or has crap stats like undead. A black orc with a shield has no business being more expensive than a ItP, fear causing grave guard.

As has been said the 1/3 chance of animosity is way too high. Orc archers are a waste of time since 33% of the time they are either not doing anything or moving off their hill and firing in one rank with a -1 to hit movement penalty (so effectively doing nothing either way). In regards to point costs the generic boy is not too bad (although the commands are comically expensive) but stuff like Black Orcs and Orc Boar boys are hilariously overpriced. Even the WAAAGH! which is supposed to be a benefit has a 1/6 chance of destroying any small cavalry unit. That kind of stuff is not reflected in the points costs of the army at all.

The magic is mediocre at best and certainly doesn't warrant the incredibly awful miscast table where if you roll a 6 or less there's a good chance your shaman (especially goblins) will die straight out and on an average roll of a 7 you forget your spell. Even if they don't miscast there's a 1/6 chance they won't be able to cast when the unit they are in squabbles. Think how awesome other armies wizards would be if they had to roll a dice every turn and on a 1 they couldn't cast anything. While you do get bonus dice for certain conditions, typically you don't have 20 orcs in combat since they die very easily so this never actually happens and most people don't realize it in the very rare times it does.

Basically the entire army list is really poorly thought out. The wacky randomness of it is pretty much all negative (this is one of my biggest problems, randomness is interesting but it's all a bet you can't win) and that handicap isn't reflected in point costs; in fact almost everything is over-costed. It's not like anything is really going to work in your favor and I don't see how that is fun at all. I've been able to put together a somewhat competitive army with them but it goes out of its way to make sure there are only 4 units or so that have to test for animosity and 2 are just a fanatic and dispel scroll delivery systems (casting with them isn't worth the huge chance that they will kill themselves) so they don't really matter and the others are just there to march block and kill war machines (and it's super awesome when they squabble right in from of an elf bolt thrower).

I feel that 8th Ed needs to be a 'fresh-slate' for army lists with a 3.0 Ravening Hordes book. It would allow them to remove the power-creep and get the differences between armies back, away from the 'army-wide special rules', and into the stat-line.

Yeah right now if you have a generally human statline and aren't immune to panic in some capacity you are way beneath the power curve when really it should be the other way around where stats above 3 and being fearless is rare and something to be excited about.

Um...

VC,Daemons, and DE are all relatively "Human" statlines, hell, VC are worse.

When GW decided to make VC, HE,DE, and Daemons' Codexes the best in the game, they've got a problem.


Regardless, I'm stickin' wiv me Boyz even if we'ze the last army tah get updated.

Winnin's fer Slackers. Green iz Best!

I almost tabled an army of all cav (except for the MOS giant and 4 chaos ogres with GWs) WOC with NGs last night.

Demons are pretty far off from an average human statline. Unless you are counting horrors which are supposed to be bad in combat but have the same stats as a human soldier and the ability to cast magic. VC do have worse stats for the most part however with price reductions isn't much of a trade off. Which is better, a fear causing, ItP model with 430441316 stats killing blow and the possibility of being brought back after dying or one with 443441218 with +1 strength on the charge? Aparently they are equal cost unless the second one wants the same armor save and then it's more expensive.

+1 to any stat should be something to be excited over. Look over the old regiments of renoun units and you'll see stuff that's entire defining characteristic is an additional strength or WS. Now having less than a 4 in a stat and no special rules is seen as super weak. I've read an argument about making Greatswords better where the consensus was that they needed strength 4 and ItP as well as stubborn. The creep is getting out of control and points costs are going down at the same time.

Hence Ixquic why all we can do is wait for GW to get off their asses and re-write the currently underpowered 'Dexes to their new standard.

Ixquic I disagree thet the O&G magic is underpowered.

Sure the little waaagh is high casting, but 2 level 2 shamans allow 2 x3 dice throws (1 spell each) per turn. Add a bound item (I use skarsnik's halberd) and you have 1-2 spells going off per turn, or burning up dispel scrolls.

I've never failed to find the little waagh spells 'useless' and have been able to find a way to use each one I've rolled at least once a game.

Big Waaagh I can't comment on as haven't used it yet.

With the exception of Mork'll fix it (which is a great spell) little Waaagh is not terrible but really medicre. Big Waagh has some good spells that come with annoying catches like how Waaagh stops your war machines from firing for two turns or doesn't work on goblins. Either way they are about on par with the main rule book spells. However these spells aren't worth the 40% chance that the caster (especially goblins) will die after a miscast. rolling a 2-4 he's straight out dead and 5-6 he's taking D3 strength 4 hits which will at the very least give him a wound and more than likely do two. When goblins are there to hold the staff of sneaky stealing (since that's 100% of their allowance) none of their spells are worth the fairly high chance of losing that item. After playing a bunch of games with the 7th edition book and never having a shaman live through one I don't even bother with the magic phase anymore.

Never had one survive?

I've played 10 tourney games with NGs now, always taking 2 level 2 mages and have never lost one to a miscast.

The usual way is the unit they are in panics/terrors/breaks and they run for the hills.

Both of my gobbo mages have survived the 2 games vs daemons (which I ground out to a draw).

Really? Never had one survive?

Big WAAGH and Little WAAGH are great.

Big Waagh has Fists of Gork, 'Eadbutt, Bash 'Em Ladz, etc.

Don't like WAAGH? Don't take it. switch it out for Gaze of Mork.

Little WAAGH is also great. Every spell has great versatility.

You must roll terribly sir. I've never lost a single shaman to a miscast, (I've taken wounds before, mind you) But never lost one. And I roll 2 Shamans.

Really, you've never rolled lower than a 5 on a miscast? That's you being lucky. Surviving D3 Strength 4 hits on a 2 wound no armor T3 model is also fairly lucky if you roll 5-6.

It's not like the higher than 7s are much better with stupid and frenzied wizards.

I have to amend my survive statement since I've stopped casting with them they typically have a better chance of living through the battle sitting in their unit stealing power dice.

Like I said the Orc and Goblin magic is decent but on the same level as college magic which has more versatility since you can typically choose different lores depending of which army you are fighting, miscasting isn't as huge a problem and your wizards don't have to worry about being stuck in a squabbling unit when you needed them to cast that turn. I used to run a magic heavy force and found it just wasn't worth the points invested and fighter characters are much more useful.

I run a SOBB cav list with a big mob of NG's and some trolls. I tend to play against a campy dwarf shooty army that wins every time. Even when things go great he pops in those miners at just the right time and diverts my Big 'Uns away from his line.

It's still a fun army to play, but the fact that I'm using a lot of empty cav bases while I slowly collect SOBB, along with them getting slaughtered at the last minute in games I feel like I should have won, means they're kind of on the back burner for now.

IMHO O&G are fantastic fun, i dont play to win i play for the enjoyment of meeting people and collecting models, iv played for over 10 years now and cudnt care if i win or lose obviously winning is nice but playing a pure goblin army i dont expect it alot haha obviously when i do win i can rub it in their face they lost to puny goblins which isnt impossible as iv done many a time.
ONLY play O&G if you really can take a loss without taking it to heart cos theyre a army thats just for fun not for the win!
i think when people play proper seriously it spoils the game sometimes so hell play them to ur hearts content and be the one up on sportsmanship