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Reiteration is fun.

KaloranSLC wrote:

kirsanth wrote:In fairness, I think the Leman Russ w/o the battle cannon is fine for play. I would have no issue.

You still need to draw LoS via vehicles rules though.

In which case, you technically would not be able to fire the battle cannon since you cannot measure/determine LOS from something that does not exist.

This is the main problem I have with it.
This makes me want to see the WYSIWYG entry for vehicles, if there is one.

However I think RAW supports that you don't technically need to model non optional equipment. Only the optional stuff.

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

HiveFleetGoliath wrote:I don't play CSM but have someone who does, i was flipping through the codex and found that the CSM's wargear includes Pistol, CC Wep, and a bolter. Does this mean you can have a model with a chainsword and a pistol and still shoot a bolter?

No, you have a model with a Bolt Pistol, CCW and Bolter that can fire the bolter.

However, many people will let you get away with sloppy WYSIWYG because it is "standard equipment". I personally wouldn't, but many would.

And before people get pissy, all my Space Wolves/Grey Hunters are WYSIWYG, and I am in fact now retrofitting them to be WYSIWYG for when the new codex comes out

Seeing as you are not allowed to not bring certain basic wargear. Its not legal to leave standard equipment behind, I can't see people enforcing WYSIWYG on basic wargear.

Well, my view is, if I cannot Tell from looking they have Bolter, CCW and Bolt Pistol, it is not WYSIWYG and should not be played. I don't come with a bunch of Coins and say "This one has XYZ Weapons and That one has ABC weapons", so why should I have to remember what wargear your troops have?

Haha, wow, Im sorry, but I guess you never play CSM then.

Modeling on a bolter, bolt pistol, close combat Weapon, krak grenades, frag grenades, and melta bombs onto each model is ridiculous. Its common sense that the WYSIWYG rule applies to special weapons and not the basic wargear, or models that have special weapons that shouldn't.

My CSM all have bolters (or special weapons), except my 3 champions with a pistol and powerfist. Otherwise my models would look like garbage. If you wouldn't play me because of such a trivial thing, I wouldn't want to play you either, because I know it'd be 2 hours of arguing and bitching on your part over more serious issues like template hits or LoS.

Night Lords wrote:Haha, wow, Im sorry, but I guess you never play CSM then.

No offence, but if I can do it on my Grey Hunters (Future Proofing FTW) you can do it on your Chaos Marines.

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Haha, wow, Im sorry, but I guess you never play CSM then.

No offence, but if I can do it on my Grey Hunters (Future Proofing FTW) you can do it on your Chaos Marines.

To do what? Appease you? So Im going to make my marines look like garbage so if I ever run across someone as extreme as you, I won't get my feelings hurt when you dont want to play me?

Tournaments don't even require that you model on pistols and CCW. Why would I go out my way and worry about such a trivial thing just to play a "fun" (it obviously wouldn't be) game? I'd pack my stuff up, laugh at you, and move down a table to a game that'd actually be enjoyable.

If you want to throw 7 things on your tiny model, go right ahead. But Im not ruining my models just to appease "that" kind of person.

Night Lords wrote:Tournaments don't even require that you model on pistols and CCW.

Oh, I'm sorry. And here I was thinking that every Tournament was down to the Tournament Organiser. Silly me!

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Tournaments don't even require that you model on pistols and CCW.

Oh, I'm sorry. And here I was thinking that every Tournament was down to the Tournament Organiser. Silly me!

Considering I've never seen anyone (organizer or player) argue over CSM gear, nor have the official GW events, I would certainly say the standard tournament doesn't require all basic gear be modeled.

Night Lords wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Tournaments don't even require that you model on pistols and CCW.

Oh, I'm sorry. And here I was thinking that every Tournament was down to the Tournament Organiser. Silly me!

Considering I've never seen anyone (organizer or player) argue over CSM gear, nor have the official GW events, I would certainly say the standard tournament doesn't require all basic gear be modeled.

And you have been to 100% of tournaments ever held in the entire world in the entire history of 40k? 75%? 50%?

I know that if I went to a tournament were the organizer refused to let me play an army I spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto simply because I did not glue a bolt pistol on each mini,I'd laugh in his face and go game with less anal people.

FITZZ wrote: I know that if I went to a tournament were the organizer refused to let me play an army I spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto simply because I did not glue a bolt pistol on each mini,I'd laugh in his face and go game with less anal people.

Or, you know, you could have done your job by clearing it with the TO before you arrived. Or, considering you "spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto" them, you could have spent a little more Making your models legal?

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I know that if I went to a tournament were the organizer refused to let me play an army I spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto simply because I did not glue a bolt pistol on each mini,I'd laugh in his face and go game with less anal people.

Or, you know, you could have done your job by clearing it with the TO before you arrived. Or, considering you "spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto" them, you could have spent a little more Making your models legal?

Well,at the few,not 100%,75% 50%or even 25% of the tournaments ever held,but the few I have attended,no one ever took issue with the fact that all my minis are not "modeled legally",I got alot of "your Death Guard look cool" but no "Hey,where's the bolt pistol".
I assume the other players there figured standard issue gear is implied so long as it's represented on some of the minis.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I know that if I went to a tournament were the organizer refused to let me play an army I spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto simply because I did not glue a bolt pistol on each mini,I'd laugh in his face and go game with less anal people.

Or, you know, you could have done your job by clearing it with the TO before you arrived. Or, considering you "spent hundreds of hours sculpting GS onto" them, you could have spent a little more Making your models legal?

I would guess if he modeled them, he didn't want to add more junk on them.
Seeing as there is no rule that allows you to not include basic equipment on models and the wording of WYSIWYG cleary states that it is for optional equipment, I think he is in the right here.
TO's need to play by the RAW rules, not whatever house rules they concoct. If playing by by a TO's rules and they don't comply with RAW then you're not play 40k.

FITZZ wrote: I assume the other players there figured standard issue gear is implied so long as it's represented on some of the minis.

So If I used Chess peices (mounted on the Correct Bases) as Space marines, you would be ok with that, so long as they all have the Standard issue gear?

What about if I have Armless Marines and made you remember "These ones are tactical, these ones are Jump-Packless Assault Squad, this one is Sicarius". After all, I am not breaking any of your rules, as standard wargear doesn't have to be modelled.

Gwar! wrote:So a Leman Russ Battle Tank does not have to have a Battle Cannon Modelled? Sweet! Looks like Super Flat Leman Russes for me.

GWAR!. . .By your OWN RAW standards, yes. That's exactly what it means . Ridiculous eh?>

apwill4765 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So a Leman Russ Battle Tank does not have to have a Battle Cannon Modelled? Sweet! Looks like Super Flat Leman Russes for me.

GWAR!. . .By your OWN RAW standards, yes. That's exactly what it means . Ridiculous eh?>

I think you mean, by THE RAW standards. Even yakface admits that Modelling for Advantage is legal.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I assume the other players there figured standard issue gear is implied so long as it's represented on some of the minis.

So If I used Chess peices (mounted on the Correct Bases) as Space marines, you would be ok with that, so long as they all have the Standard issue gear?

What about if I have Armless Marines and made you remember "These ones are tactical, these ones are Jump-Packless Assault Squad, this one is Sicarius". After all, I am not breaking any of your rules, as standard wargear doesn't have to be modelled.

I believe that you must use citadel models. Aside from that, RAW does not specify that standard wargear must be modelled

apwill4765 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I assume the other players there figured standard issue gear is implied so long as it's represented on some of the minis.

So If I used Chess peices (mounted on the Correct Bases) as Space marines, you would be ok with that, so long as they all have the Standard issue gear?

What about if I have Armless Marines and made you remember "These ones are tactical, these ones are Jump-Packless Assault Squad, this one is Sicarius". After all, I am not breaking any of your rules, as standard wargear doesn't have to be modelled.

I believe that you must use citadel models. Aside from that, RAW does not specify that standard wargear must be modelled

Raw also doesn't not specify Upgrades have to be modelled outside of Characters.

Gwar! wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So a Leman Russ Battle Tank does not have to have a Battle Cannon Modelled? Sweet! Looks like Super Flat Leman Russes for me.

GWAR!. . .By your OWN RAW standards, yes. That's exactly what it means . Ridiculous eh?>

I think you mean, by THE RAW standards. Even yakface admits that Modelling for Advantage is legal.

I was simply implying that you follow THE RAW stnadards. I didn't mean that you invented them =D. But still, you WERE just arguing that using improperly modeled figures was ridiculous, weren't you? By raw it is legal, so I was just tickled to see you actually argue against it, that's all.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I assume the other players there figured standard issue gear is implied so long as it's represented on some of the minis.

So If I used Chess peices (mounted on the Correct Bases) as Space marines, you would be ok with that, so long as they all have the Standard issue gear?

What about if I have Armless Marines and made you remember "These ones are tactical, these ones are Jump-Packless Assault Squad, this one is Sicarius". After all, I am not breaking any of your rules, as standard wargear doesn't have to be modelled.

No your not "breaking" any rules,however,armless,jump packless marines are just a wee bit different than say,a sqaud that is obviously Plauge marines,clearly showing who is an aspiring champion with a plasma pistol/power fist,who are armed with plasma/melta,while others are armed with bolters (half of witch have bolt pistols).
I honestly don't see the comparison of armless marines to not gluing a bolt pistol or slinging a bolter on each individual mini.

FITZZ wrote: No your not "breaking" any rules,however,armless,jump packless marines are just a wee bit different than say,a sqaud that is obviously Plauge marines,clearly showing who is an aspiring champion with a plasma pistol/power fist,who are armed with plasma/melta,while others are armed with bolters (half of witch have bolt pistols).
I honestly don't see the comparison of armless marines to not gluing a bolt pistol or slinging a bolter on each individual mini.

Well, it is the same thing. What you are doing is refusing to Model Standard Equipment. Why should you be allowed to do it and I not? it is the EXACT same thing.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: No your not "breaking" any rules,however,armless,jump packless marines are just a wee bit different than say,a sqaud that is obviously Plauge marines,clearly showing who is an aspiring champion with a plasma pistol/power fist,who are armed with plasma/melta,while others are armed with bolters (half of witch have bolt pistols).
I honestly don't see the comparison of armless marines to not gluing a bolt pistol or slinging a bolter on each individual mini.

Well, it is the same thing. What you are doing is refusing to Model Standard Equipment. Why should you be allowed to do it and I not? it is the EXACT same thing.

Again,I don't agree that "armless"marines and a marine with out a bolt pistol are the same thing,I will however defend your right to flagrently disreguard rules along with me.

FITZZ wrote: Again,I don't agree that "armless"marines and a marine with out a bolt pistol are the same thing,I will however defend your right to flagrently disreguard rules along with me.

With all due respect, why is it different you get to omit 1 Weapon and I omit 2?

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: Again,I don't agree that "armless"marines and a marine with out a bolt pistol are the same thing,I will however defend your right to flagrently disreguard rules along with me.

With all due respect, why is it different you get to omit 1 Weapon and I omit 2?

My only issue with it would be the inability to tell whos who,with the sqauds I've modeled you can clearly see who is an aspiring champion,who's got special wepons etc,while with your sqauds it just appears some tragic chainsaw mishap has occured aboard a battle barge.
I do understand the point your trying to make,I just think in the case of standard issue gear wysiwyg shouldn't be so rigid.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: Again,I don't agree that "armless"marines and a marine with out a bolt pistol are the same thing,I will however defend your right to flagrently disreguard rules along with me.

With all due respect, why is it different you get to omit 1 Weapon and I omit 2?

Its not. However, I would ask that you let me know whats what before the mission and that you specify what you are removing, where certain models are in the unit.
This would add a lot of time to the game as every time you move I would have to ask where your captain was.

Again, perfectly legal per RAW but its going to cause both you and your opponent a lot of headaches.
Not including bolt pistols on every single space marine even though they have them, is not really going to cause many headaches because it is something that is uniform across the unit.

Of course with a lot of armies adding a captain to a squad is an upgrade and would therefore need to be modeled and would eliminate this problem.



As for not needing to model upgrades on vehicles, that I would say is wrong.

The WYSIWYG rule just uses character models as an example. It however states that these type of upgrades need to be modeled. An upgrade on a vehicle is the same as upgrading a character and therefore needs to be modeled.

Gwar! wrote:

FITZZ wrote: No your not "breaking" any rules,however,armless,jump packless marines are just a wee bit different than say,a sqaud that is obviously Plauge marines,clearly showing who is an aspiring champion with a plasma pistol/power fist,who are armed with plasma/melta,while others are armed with bolters (half of witch have bolt pistols).
I honestly don't see the comparison of armless marines to not gluing a bolt pistol or slinging a bolter on each individual mini.

Well, it is the same thing. What you are doing is refusing to Model Standard Equipment. Why should you be allowed to do it and I not? it is the EXACT same thing.

No, I refuse to model two completely different weapon outfits on one guy. In your situation, you dont even have a complete model (Let me guess: gluing a head to a base is the same thing as not having a bolt pistol and sword ).

I dont even understand why you bother arguing this. There is no written rule stating otherwise, and the general consensus (thats being nice) among warhammer players is that you do not have to model CSM with Pistols and CCWs.

Night Lords wrote:I dont even understand why you bother arguing this. There is no written rule stating otherwise, and the general consensus (thats being nice) among warhammer players is that you do not have to model CSM with Pistols and CCWs.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I could care less what the "general Consensus is" and deal with what the rules actually say. Nothing Says WYSIWYG is needed beyond characters, and you clearly do not see WYSIWYG as needed, so why are my Armless marines any less valid than your Chaos marines with Missing Pistol?

There are no strict rules on WYSISYG - although they may be imposed by tournament organisers. I have never participated in a tournament, I do not intend to either, and as such, i cannot comment on what rules they are likely to include - but I imagine they can make what rules they desire.

Contrary to the hardline veiw by Gwar! and his supporters, there is a position between an all and nothing WYSIWYG, and its called 'what position or interpretation would a reasonable person come to'. The 'reasonable person' approach is possibly the most common principal applied when interpreting all forms of legislation, and when you get down to it, legislation is simply a statement of rules (like a game rule book really). Remember, all law is subject to interpretation, no position is 'fixed' (you only need to look at the complexity of the legal system to appreciate this).

Decide how you like to play, and play to have fun. If your idea of fun, is two immaculately painted & modelled armies, facing off on a realistic board with awesome terrain, go with superstrict Gwar-style WYSIWYG. This is not wrong. It is just one way to play. If you can have fun with chesspieces substituting for Spase marheens or two mobile phones stuck together as carnifexes, then stick a post-it note on the phones with "carnyfeks' written on it, and play away! This is not wrong. It is just one way to play.

It is not anyones place to tell you how to play, only provide suggestions and alternatives.

I do suggest that whomever you play with, you clarify the rules in advance, to ensure that everyone is on the same page.

Gwar! wrote:Well, to be perfectly honest, I could care less what the "general Consensus is" and deal with what the rules actually say.

Gwar! wrote:I could care less

This is why everyone should play as Dark Angels. Then you get to say, 'Of course I gave them all pistols. Where are they? Under the robe of course. They're there, you just can't see them. Same with the grenades. And the Meltabombs. And Kharn the Betrayer.'

In theory, all the stuff should be on the model. In practice that isn't all that practical. With some careful planning you can just about manage to get everything on the model and have it look decent, but even Games Workshop doesn't seem to plan on that. Most of the time you couldn't add all the options to a squad even if you wanted to. Unless you buy the extra bits or, as Games Workshop likely wants, additional boxes just to get those extra pistols and holsters.

I'm fairly big on WYSIWYG. I at least want to see everyone carrying the proper main weapon. I'd even like to see things like meltabombs. But really, just having the gear spread over the squad works. Having a pile of crap with a model's head poking out the top doesn't look so awesome.

Although I do know one guy who uses equipment bearers, little models that go with a squad and carry all the non on model war gear. Like Azrael's helmet bearer or a Grot orderly.