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Jin wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The 'stall' thread is a good idea for a sticky, although I can already taste the spam. I'll be awaiting a good response.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean about "tasting the spam", but, as it is right now, GoFenris reviews users before they're allowed a Stall, so hopefully, it won't get out of hand.

Yes and we have only had two users ask to be in the 'Swap Shop Booth' list. Truthfully, this list, in this format could only work with a handful of 'Booth' sellers. More and they might as well go back to the old list. We (all three of us) are aware of this.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:To use your words, I do now find the Swap Shop to be an 'unwelcoming place' in certain respects, but I think the new sticky threads are good ideas, and certainly call for moderation within themselves.

I'm also in the 'want' before 'have' boat, because I'm usually looking for something other than cash when trading.

The reputable traders list is fine... I just really don't want to see a public blacklist. This has probably already been ruled out, but that was the sick feeling I got when I saw the 'reputable' list. Not because I have anything to hide, but more for the drama that trading complaint threads bring up.

It is really too bad that is your feeling (regarding the Swap Shop being an unwelcome place). It is not our intent.

Admittedly, in the early days of Swap Shop modding (I know, it wasn't very long ago) Swap Shop titles were pretty black and white to me. This was not done out of any kind of 'power trip' or desire to 'rule with an iron fist' it was simply a job. I now try to be more accommodating to the creators of a title, within reason. Because, at the end of the day, it's about people trying to trade and sell some stuff. That's what the end result should be, not the other way 'round.

Now, with that said and with what Jin has already compiled nicely. We are trying to do it in a way that is balanced for everyone.

As far as 'Haves' or 'Wants' first. The truth is, 50% want it one way and 50% want it another, depending on the day, time and who is looking for what. It is really something enforced to just keep the whole thing clean. If you always know 'Wants' are second and you cue visually onto the [W] it should work fine and this is why we strictly enforce the whole [H][W] thing so much, to help people scan. Is this an issue with anyone?

As Jin has already stated. These rules are NOT permanent. If you have ideas and reasoning on why it will work better, we encourage your input.

One last thing regarding the Swap Shop Mods: When the powers that be asked us to take on the role of Swap Shop mods, the potential for disaster was high. Three people from probably disparate backgrounds and different ages with very little guidance could have caused a meltdown in the Swap Shop.

That didn't happen. And while I could gush about how great both of my compatriots (Jin and Ketara) are regarding teamwork and other gentlemanly behavior, it's important to distill this all down to a few points. We want the Swap Shop to be better and we are open to new ideas.

Regarding a set 'Black List'. None of us want that either.

Again, as been said before and will be said again, if you have issues, gripes, complaints, Tarot Readings, gas, bitches, witches, snitches, ideas, cramps, epiphanies, heartburn, dreams, snootchie bootchies, ethereal visions, brainstorms, brainfreezes or even a moment of clarity caused by an incredible bowel movement regarding the Swap Shop, let us know! Just the idea, not how it came to you. Thanks!

I think some of the original bad feeling (that came out a lot in athba's thread) came from the feeling of "I wasn't made aware of this." Sort of like having the rug pulled out from you, being suprised by the sudden changes. I think having things explained a little bit goes a long way towards easing the transition.

It's pretty easy to see (imho) that the changes are for the good. I do admit feeling resentment towards them at the beginning. But I decided to bite my tongue and see if they were for the good... and I believe they are.

If it could be done all over again, I think the transition could have been a little smoother. Imagine having the run of a place one day, and the next day having to do as you are told. There's a certain rebel in all of us that wants to kick back against that, and I think that's where the negative sentiment and the feeling of the swap shop being a little bit "unwelcome" came from.

So I really think it was the abruptness of the change that brought about the negative reaction, more than anything else. I can certainly see the benefits of the changes. And I'm also glad to have swapmods, because before it was either anarchy, the court of public opinion, or the ocassional mod intervention that ruled. It's much more consistent and fair now, and I defnitely think that's a good thing

I'll definitely make suggestions if I see room for improvement! But now that I've gotten used to the changes, I don't think I would have done anything differently... except maybe soften the landing (a bit ) for everyone who was taken off guard by it!

@RiTides Nids:

Fair point about the transition. Definitely could have gone smoother, though considering how often people don't read the stickies at the top of the forum (newer and older members alike) I think a good chunk of the SwapShoppers would've still been going "WTF??!??"

To be fair, for a week or so before we started being gung-ho about the format changes, GoFenris and I had been posting up that some changes and such would be coming along.

Still, glad to hear things seem to be working out for some people. Let us know if you think of some good improvements! I have a tendency of getting complacent if there're no criticisms .

I have a suggestion!

Army/Wargame specific sub-sub forums.

40k > Ig, SM, Imperium Forces (Witchhunters, SoB, Inquisition, etc), Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons, Chaos (everything Chaos).

WHFB > Every army. Sorry, don't really play Fantasy. Someone want to come along and fill out the armies?

Alternate Wargames, like AT-43, FoW, etc.

Miscellaneous > Cardgames, flotsam and jetsam that doesn't fit anywhere else.

So basically the format would be...

Swap Shop > 40k > (army)
Swap Shop > WHFB > (army)
Swap Shop > Alternate Wargames > (army)
Swap Shop > Miscellaneous > (hobby)

Now I am not really sure if it's possible to do a sub-sub forum. Perhaps there could be stickies where people post everything they're selling? The stickies would be titled "40k: IG sales" or "40k: Ork sales". I realize this is a big undertaking, and, like the US' healthcare system, shouldn't be done all at once or it will fail gratuitously. But if army sections could be done one at a time, the transition would be relatively smooth and the end result is a more streamlined swap shop in which hopeful buyers/sellers don't have to wade through threads that don't have anything to do with what they're interested in. Yes, Dakka is not an eBay or Bartertown, but I am not suggesting Dakka become such a thing. Merely expediting the exchanging process is my objective.

Naturally open to criticism, I'm interested in what people's thoughts on this are.

Thanks,
Rico.

It's an interesting idea, and certainly would help people to locate exactly what they're after faster.

However, that would fall more under Legoburners jurisdiction, and whether he wants multiple sub-forums cluttering the place up. I know it's possible, as I've administrated forums before, but due to the lack of sub-forums used thus far at Dakka Dakka, I'm inclined to think that sub-forums aren't too popular with the upper echelons. Plus, they can make the place a bit untidy.

However, if it's a popular idea, I see no reason not to bat it to the admins. Any more feedback on this idea?

I dont think its fair that if multiple army are been offered in swap shop at the same time , im to condense them all into 1 giant wall of text , probably with title so long that it doesnt fit the subject bar either.

I mean im not trying to sell off 1 blister , they are their own legit whole army with their specific details ...

Thats what i think atleast . Would like to hear dakka member's opinion.

Those who pay for Dakka should get more features in this regard.

@Luna -
I've already explained to you about your concerns. Each of your 4 previous posts had about a paragraph-length description with a single photo and for each of those 4 threads you were requesting the same Wants. It would not have been that large of a post (especially given some of the lists that people post up) to consolidate them into a single post and the title would be fine if you use the standard abrreviations for armies, Many others seem to be able to accomplish this with no issue.

RE: subforums - while the idea is sound, there's not enough traffic in the Swap Shop forum itself (much less postings of specific armies, etc) to warrant further sub-division of the Swap Shop. If the Swap Shop were it's own separate entity from Dakka, I would probably be up for such groupings. As Ketara says, though, it'd probably untidy things up and ultimately comes down to Legoburner's/Yakface's decision (both of whom have had a tendency against creating sub-forums unless site traffic dictated a need for it).

Jin wrote:@Luna -
I've already explained to you about your concerns. Each of your 4 previous posts had about a paragraph-length description with a single photo and for each of those 4 threads you were requesting the same Wants. It would not have been that large of a post (especially given some of the lists that people post up) to consolidate them into a single post and the title would be fine if you use the standard abrreviations for armies, Many others seem to be able to accomplish this with no issue.

RE: subforums - while the idea is sound, there's not enough traffic in the Swap Shop forum itself (much less postings of specific armies, etc) to warrant further sub-division of the Swap Shop. If the Swap Shop were it's own separate entity from Dakka, I would probably be up for such groupings. As Ketara says, though, it'd probably untidy things up and ultimately comes down to Legoburner's/Yakface's decision (both of whom have had a tendency against creating sub-forums unless site traffic dictated a need for it).

What about stickies? Perhaps consolidating things even more; for example...

40k: Imperium Forces
40k: Imperium Enemies

WHFB: Good guys (Again, WHFB is not up my proverbial alley)
WHFB: Bad guys

Alternate Wargames

Miscellaneous

My sale thread is at the bottom of the second page. Since people (at least I) can't bump posts (appendation, which makes sense - fighting for the top is a whole other can of worms) my thread is going nowhere but down. I really don't care, this isn't about my sales thread. I'm in no particular hurry to sell or buy the items. But I just believe it will make the swap shop aspect of Dakka far easier.

What I am envisioning is, in said stickies, people would post what they have for sale or are buying. One post per person, excess posts are deleted (exceptions dealt with on a case to case basis, naturally). When items are sold, the person edits their post, saying that their items have been sold/bought/traded/yadayadaya. These edited posts can be deleted or just left as is.

Thoughts? Again, I realize Dakka is not solely a trading forum, but exchanges are a part of Dakka some partake in, and it's a cluttered shop in my eyes.

Rico.

@Rico -

I think the issue with the stickies idea is that it slows down the browsing process. Part of the reason we were being sticklers about the title formatting was so that people could quickly scan the page for what they're interested in (I've personally found having the [H] and [W] tags helps a lot with this) and skip any threads they had no interest in. Yes, you can just avoid stickies of armies or what not you're not interested in, but going through that thread would be really slow. Also, given how many people just let their threads die off a natural thread-death due to forgetfulness, there would be a lot of clutter and old/defunct trades in the threads.

I wouldn't mind having a thread like that if I wasn't so sure that a lot of posters would forget about mentioning that their items have been bought/sold and having the thread just bloat up. Moderating the thread would also be somewhat of a pain considering that us SwapMods only have limited Mod powers. For instance, we don't receive any notification if someone clicks the "Alert Moderator" buttons, and not having MOD tags or Mod color in the users list means that some people don't realize that Ketara, GoFenris and I are demi-Moderators for the Swap Shop. I can imagine the regular Mods wouldn't want to have to deal with Swap Shop stuff all the time (which, incidentally, is how we three got the job ).

I agree that it's a bit cluttered at the moment in the Swap Shop. Between stickies and sub-forums, I'd prefer the sub-forums option of clearing things up. Perhaps I'll set up a poll about it.

so is it ok to post a thread asking if a person is a scammer? while i wouldn't say that there has been a deluge recently but i've seen more in the last two weeks than i have in the past year. i always thought that anything other than a trade post wasn't allowed. i don't have any bad experiences to post about; i just figured i'd get a mod clarification just in case of future shennanigans.

I think the general sort of accepted practice is if someone has an issue with another we let them post about it and 'hash-it-out' as it were and try to remind people of the Dakka Swap Shop policies. If it gets ugly or counterproductive we will lock it.

My compatriots may have their own comments but this is how we have conducted business thus far.

I know we don't WANT to generally get involved in trade disputes because that really isn't our function at this time.

I think PM-ing individuals (whether third party or the individual in question) with requests regarding the integrity of a potential scammer may be the answer to what you are asking.

thanks. also, is there a policy on original posters bumping their own threads? there is one in particular on that never leaves the front page due to daily bumps by the OP (and NO posts by anyone else).

warboss wrote:thanks. also, is there a policy on original posters bumping their own threads? there is one in particular on that never leaves the front page due to daily bumps by the OP (and NO posts by anyone else).

No, self bumping/spamming is not allowed under the Swap Shop or Dakka rules. Please feel free to PM us if you notice one as we don't always catch it within the Swap Shop. Thanks.

GoFenris wrote:I think the general sort of accepted practice is if someone has an issue with another we let them post about it and 'hash-it-out' as it were and try to remind people of the Dakka Swap Shop policies. If it gets ugly or counterproductive we will lock it.

My compatriots may have their own comments but this is how we have conducted business thus far.

I know we don't WANT to generally get involved in trade disputes because that really isn't our function at this time.

I think PM-ing individuals (whether third party or the individual in question) with requests regarding the integrity of a potential scammer may be the answer to what you are asking.

My personal philosophy on these issues has always been "Bad Trader Alerts are ok, so long as you keep it civil and avoid the name-calling". Like GoFenris, if it gets ugly or counter-productive, I will lock those threads.
We legally can't (and won't, predominantly because we can't) help forum members reclaim their things/money from bad trades conducted over the Swap Shop, but we CAN propagate the information on said traders so that others can avoid bad traders.

That being said, with a sort of recent rise in this issue, it seems like we need to come up with some official hard-set guidelines to Bad Traders. Stay tuned.

Jin wrote:

GoFenris wrote:I think the general sort of accepted practice is if someone has an issue with another we let them post about it and 'hash-it-out' as it were and try to remind people of the Dakka Swap Shop policies. If it gets ugly or counterproductive we will lock it.

My compatriots may have their own comments but this is how we have conducted business thus far.

I know we don't WANT to generally get involved in trade disputes because that really isn't our function at this time.

I think PM-ing individuals (whether third party or the individual in question) with requests regarding the integrity of a potential scammer may be the answer to what you are asking.

My personal philosophy on these issues has always been "Bad Trader Alerts are ok, so long as you keep it civil and avoid the name-calling". Like GoFenris, if it gets ugly or counter-productive, I will lock those threads.
We legally can't (and won't, predominantly because we can't) help forum members reclaim their things/money from bad trades conducted over the Swap Shop, but we CAN propagate the information on said traders so that others can avoid bad traders.

That being said, with a sort of recent rise in this issue, it seems like we need to come up with some official hard-set guidelines to Bad Traders. Stay tuned.

Yes thats good news.

Now i dont have to go rabid lol

Have a "courtroom" style thread. Where the aggrieved party may make a statement about their loss. Giving proof, such as confirmation/tracking, recieipt of m/o. Give the accused a specific amount of time to respond and present their own evidence.
Maybe set up like this;

[Questionable trade]

I sent package/money to (username)
(confirmation number)
It has been ( ) days/weeks
There has been no reply.

Only the accused should post a reply in the thread.
Other dakka users have a right to read the accused response, and should be encouraged to pm the individual and demand it of them.

If no response is given or it is insufficient, allow the victim to post: Username, Last name and mailing address.

That information should go into a sticky for questionable traders, that only mods can post in.

Big'Uns wrote:Have a "courtroom" style thread. Where the aggrieved party may make a statement about their loss. Giving proof, such as confirmation/tracking, recieipt of m/o. Give the accused a specific amount of time to respond and present their own evidence.
Maybe set up like this;

[Questionable trade]

I sent package/money to (username)
(confirmation number)
It has been ( ) days/weeks
There has been no reply.

Only the accused should post a reply in the thread.
Other dakka users have a right to read the accused response, and should be encouraged to pm the individual and demand it of them.

If no response is given or it is insufficient, allow the victim to post: Username, Last name and mailing address.

That information should go into a sticky for questionable traders, that only mods can post in.

Interesting and certainly worth consideration.

There is an obvious need for a bad trader list .
Having 3 victims from 1 same scammer shows the dire need of allowing trade shop users to inform each other.

LunaHound wrote:
There is an obvious need for a bad trader list .
Having 3 victims from 1 same scammer shows the dire need of allowing trade shop users to inform each other.

I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.

GoFenris wrote:I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.

:(

I also PM'ed the SwapMods about the handling of scam-type issues, and what I was a little unsatisfied with. This post by GoFenris is what I'm talking about :(. Maybe one of you could post here if you have something public to say about it?

I'm not saying we need a thread, or anything like that (although those are all good suggestions worth considering)... I just think things could be handled a little differently.

Thanks,
Steve / RTN

RiTides Nids wrote:

GoFenris wrote:I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.

:(

I also PM'ed the SwapMods about the handling of scam-type issues, and what I was a little unsatisfied with. This post by GoFenris is what I'm talking about :(. Maybe one of you could post here if you have something public to say about it?

I'm not saying we need a thread, or anything like that (although those are all good suggestions worth considering)... I just think things could be handled a little differently.

Thanks,
Steve / RTN

Let's make it clear that we (the Swap Mods) are discussing of a better way to handle posts regarding potential scammers. However I do feel it is very important for the community to be reminded that my above post is simply a matter of fact. Please don't construe more out of it than that.

:(

FWIW, in my -not small- trading experience I've learned that, if you're going to allow trading, you're eventually going to attract scammers and dishonest traders.

If you have scammers and dishonest traders, and you've decided to KEEP your trading area, you NEED some public way of warning people about them.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:FWIW, in my -not small- trading experience I've learned that, if you're going to allow trading, you're eventually going to attract scammers and dishonest traders.

If you have scammers and dishonest traders, and you've decided to KEEP your trading area, you NEED some public way of warning people about them.

Eric

Yep

I believe you assume there is also a NEED of a SwapShop. Please remember, the SwapShop is a courtesy provided by the Dakka powers that be.

Nope , never did i ever assume there is a Need of a SwapShop . Just if such thing exists , there is some responsibility that need to be held
to keep it safe. ( see what Eric said )

Hey there,

Im basically just mirroring what others have said, but im a user who mostly uses Warseer, and only posts on here very rarely because I don't feel its as friendly, but still I decided to post the other day on the swap shop since im looking for something in particular. Due to not reading the multiple stickies which govern the rules, I simply posted on the title what I put on warseer which was: "W: LOTR Stuff, H: Money and a few bits [UK]". I then get it changed to "H: Unknown, W: Unknown" and the usual copy and paste post from the mods and a bit saying "As a repeat poster within the Swap Shop, please take the time to correct your thread title. " as if i've done something bad and I should have known better.

So then what do I get since its been changed to Unknown? People posting saying the title is misleading, and questioning that the original wasn't as bad/misleading. So was "W: LOTR Stuff, H: Money and a few bits [UK]" so drastic to the apparent strict rules that it warrents changing it to something which turns my topic into people complaining that its misleading due to being Unknown?

Reasons like this is WHY I tend to stay over at Warseer and don't enjoy coming over here, heck I get problems by simply posting a topic in a trading forum. Its not welcoming, its not friendly, and it doesn't make me want to come back whatsoever. Which is a shame really, since the forums have some strong points which are better than Warseers but I feel like I don't want to come here.

Just my two cents and honest opinion, and im sorry if I sound harsh. Its just how I feel as someone who posted here just to do some trading for miniatures for wargaming, nothing bloody major which I think would warrent the above problems and such harsh rules, with not one bit of friendlyness in any way, shape or form.

I don't know why they'd have done that. Seems fine to me.
FWIW, your thread title would have been fine over on Bartertown:
http://www.bartertown.com/trading/
Come hang out with us, if you want. : )


Eric

Tooon, stay away from the off-topic forum and YMDA and its very friendly.

People from other forums come to Dakka with a mindset that we're not friendly.

Stick around.

I cant say that i have ever found Dakka not friendly, at times its been helpfull, and ive had no end of good input by people, its been above all enjoyable.
The new thinking behind trading in the forum is great. and i 100% agree that although dakka isnt in any way reposible for the trades that go on ,a list of (for want of a better word) scammers or presumed scammers is of great benifi to every one.

Tooooon wrote:...I then get it changed to "H: Unknown, W: Unknown" and the usual copy and paste post from the mods and a bit saying "As a repeat poster within the Swap Shop, please take the time to correct your thread title. " as if i've done something bad and I should have known better....

This is something I have done as a Swap Mod, I can not explain how my compatriots handle their own minor issues. To explain: For the first several weeks I would simply fix the Swap Shop titles with a link to the new rules with the post explaining why I fixed it providing links to the new rules. Now that the Swap Shop has been going for over three months with Swap Shop title rules, sometimes individuals still get their titles wrong. When this happens I look at the user's "New Topics Started". If they have never posted within the Swap Shop before or not posted since the new rules have started, I will fix their title and explain the new rules. Often times, however, I run across a user that has posted several times in the Swap Shop and still gets their title wrong, although in your case, you only posted one other time. Either way this tells something; The user (for whatever reason) is not reading, or understanding the rules or looking at the numerous other examples to ensure their thread title is correct.

With this said, should I continue to fix every single thread title that is blatantly incorrect?

Now a peak into my method...

I have, in the past, PM'd users that continued to 'get it wrong'. This didn't help. I almost never received a PM back and in the one case I did, it was rude and the user threatened of going over to (drum roll please) Bartertown. To compound this, most of the users I PM'd that posted again in the Swap Shop, did so with incorrect titles.

So, should I continue to enable this type of behavior?

My answer was simple, the stock [H] Unknown [W] Unknown thread titles. Yes it is meant as a minor embarrassment and frankly, yes, if users had read and understood the rules, should have known better. Also, there are a myriad of other thread titles as examples. I know this may seem a bit mean but it is the solution I have come up with and so far it works. Now I have some users PM-ing me apologizing and asking to ensure that I check to see if their title is now correct. To which I happily PM them back saying thanks. I believe, in most cases, the user in question knows that they should have known better and were called on it.

This is the first outward complaint I have heard about it and it is probably because you have only posted within the Swap Shop one time before. I will definitely look at my process (which in general I am standing by) and perhaps begin a type of three-strike kind of system.

I hope this answers your questions and please understand, even though this is something I have done to your thread title, it was not meant as personal toward you. Your post within here (Nuts & Bolts) is causing me to re-evaluate my little program and make improvements.

As a note, the Swap Shop titles (it was decided) are strictly monitored simply to make it easier for browsers to find what they are looking for. It is really the only area monitored so tightly and consistantly within the Swap Shop.