Nurglitch wrote:It's not a derogatory description, it's quite simply a false description.
The Forces of Chaos section of Codex: Chaos Space Marines is described in the Introduction as examining each character, troop type, and vehicle in the Chaos Space Marines army. Each unit has a "full description" or fluff piece, and "complete rules for the unit and details of any unique powers they possess or specialist wargear they carry into battle."
If we go by the labels present in the army list, then only the "Chaos Space Marine" unit can be affected by Fabius Bile's Enhanced rule, because it specifies "Chaos Space Marines" and only one unit has that label. Possessed and Chosen Chaos Space Marines lack that label for the simple reasons that they have those extra words "Possessed" and "Chosen".
In addition, the Introduction describes the Army List section as categorizing units in Force Organization Chart slots, and assigning them points values for the purposes of helping players state fair battles. Interesting, in talking about the Army List section, the Introduction mentions that it takes the units presented in the Forces of Chaos section and arranges them for the purposes of army selection.
Truly, then, the Force of Chaos section is what defines a unit in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, while the Army List section is what defines a unit's place in the Chaos Space Marine army organization.
If we take a strict
RAW approach then yes, only Chaos Space Marine (Troop choices) are affected by Fabius Bile's entry. That was my initial take. But if we are trying to use a different point of view, which we all acknowledge is a point of contention with
GW as to where
RAW and
RAI begin and end, then we need something consistent in its language (which is the hear of all these problems). Thus we come to my problem with using the Forces of Chaos section.
First, you have advocated that this section "is what defines a unit in Codex:
CSM." Let's look at the language used on
pg 25. "Forces of Chaos: This section of the book details the forces used by the Chaos Space Marines - the various units and a selection of special characters that you can choose to field in your army. Each entry in this "Forces" section describes the unit and gives the rules needed to use your corresponding models in the Warhammer 40,000 game."
So this establishes what exactly? That this section will 'describe' (not define) the unit and their special rules. Reading on... "On the following pages are the complete rules for the models in the Chaos Space Marines army. Each entry includes the model's characterisitcs profile, its special rules, and any unique wargear it may be equipped with. Normally, this information is used by players in combination with the army list given later to create a force that can be used in a one-off game using the missions in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."
Again, what has been said? This section will include model characterisitcs profile, special rules, and unique wargear. I also find it interesting that the introduction of this section states that you need the Army List section 'to create a force.' Take that language for what its worth (a murky collection of words giving no more weight to one section than the other).
Let's now take a closer examination of the section you are pointing to specifically,
pg 26. So according to one interpretation, everything listed here should meet Fabius Bile's Enhanced Warriors Rule's qualifications.
BTW just to reiterate, that text reads "...any number of Chaos Space Marine squads..." Well, what units in this section mention that phrase? Chaos Space Marines, duh. "Chaos Space Marine squads sometimes also use heavy weapons...(top right hand column 8th line down). Havocs also have that phrase. "Some Chaos Space Marine squads carry..." (first line of the entry). Chosen sort of have this language. "Squads of Chosen Chaos Space Marines have many decades..." (First line second paragraph). That is kind of a stretch. So Bikes will have this phrase too right? In fact they do not. At no point on this page are Bikes even referenced to use 'squads.' Curiously, they are called Chaos Space Marine Bikers here, but not in the Army List section (the only unit I have found to suffer this distinction). Additionally, I need to point out how shoddy this section is compared to the others in the book. Obviously
GW crammed this section in to save on printing costs (I know that is hearsay and has no bearing on our analysis). You can tell because
they left out the bold text entry detailing the Havocs special rules. Very poor quality indeed. They describe Chaos Space Marines as Infantry, Chaos Chosen (again not matching the Army List name) as Infantry with Infiltrate, and Chaos Bikers (matching the Army List entry) as Bikes. But they skip Havocs altogether. So if this is the portion of the codex where units are truly defined, can no one legally field Havocs?
Let's look at one final section of the Forces of Chaos Section before I end this post and move on to a pro-Army List section post. Page 29 describes Possessed
CSM. Like Bikes, it does not use the 'squad' term anywhere in the entry. But it does describe them as "Possessed Chaos Space Marines" in the first line of the third paragraph. So this unit doesn't meet the Chaos Space Marine squads descriptor criteria for Enhanced Warriors. But Bikes, who are thought to meet the criteria, also lack the 'squad' term in their entry.
Ultimately what this comes down to is that the Forces of Chaos Section "details" each unit, not defines it (yes it states it has the 'complete rules for each unit' but even that is not true as the numbers and wargear rules are not present), and must be used in conjuction with the Army List section to form an army. Likewise, the Army List section does not have the space to describe the unique wargear or special rules of each unit. Thus it relies on the Forces of Chaos Section to describe these assets. The Army List Section is the only place in the codex that contains all of this information (albeit in summary for unique rules) and uses a consistent enough language pattern to meet the criteria laid out by the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My Pro-Army List Section post. Again we'll begin with the language present at the top of the page. "Chaos Space Marines Army List: The following army list enables you to field a Chaos Space Marines army and fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. It also provides you with points values for the various units should you wish to use points in scenarious you've devised yourself, or as part of a campaign you are running."
That's the header. Notice the title is much more formal than "Forces of Chaos." It actually states this is the Army List. You will use this to field a
CSM army and fight battles. It provides you with points values for the various units. I would argue that this is the section that will define these units. The details of their rules may be in the previous sections (Forces of Chaos and the Wargear section) but this is the section used to 'enable you to field a
CSM army and fight battles.'
It then goes on to say you can pick units to fit a theme and it includes all the special characters. It then talks about the
FOC and points values/list building.
We've all seen unit entries, so I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by describing them for you. And you've probably already read my earlier post advocating that units containing the phrase Chaos Space Marines in the title of the entry are eligible for enhanced warriors. But allow me the indulgence of pointing out a few things. One, the language of each entry is consistent. Title, stat block, Unit Type, Number/squad if applicable and wargear options.
We stated earlier that Enhanced Warriors applies to "Chaos Space Marine squads." Well, obviously vehicles do not receive this as they do not have a Number/Squad portion to their entry. So out of the remaining options, who qualifies? Well Chaos Space Marines of course. So Abaddon the Despoiler or Kharn the Betrayer or Fabius Bile himself do not qualify. Neither do Terminators or Cult Troops. But 3 Units have the words Chaos Space Marines in their unit entries. Chaos Space Marines, Chosen Chaos Space Marines, and Possessed Chaos Space Marines. Even though Bikers have the phrase "Chaos Space Marine Bikers" in their Forces of Chaos description, they do not have it in their unit title or description in the army list section. Neither do Chaos Havocs.
I will admit though, what stands this argument on its head is not the Forces of Chaos Section, but the Stat Block. The Chaos Space Marine Stat Block has Chaos Space Marine and its stats. Chosen say Chosen and Possessed say Possessed. The counter here though, is if that were the case, you couldn't enhance the Aspiring Champion (which is just silly).
In short, this is the section of the Codex that defines Unit characterisitcs, not the Forces of Chaos Section. It contains the consistent language necessary to
enable a player to use these models with Games Workshop's rules to play a game of Warhammer 40,000.
/I will now step off my
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nurglitch wrote:Inigo Montoya:
I think everyone agrees with the notion that the rule affects all those units and only those units cited. The question in dispute is which unit or units is referenced by the rule.
There's the notion that it's the units referenced in the Army List, either the Chaos Space Marine unit or the three units with "Chaos Space Marine" words in their label, but as the Introduction tells us in both cases, that isn't what's going on in that section, and in the latter case two units have suspiciously inexact labels ("Possessed" and "Chosen").
There's also the notion that it's the units so designated in Chaos Space Marines entry in the Forces of Chaos section. This notion seems to be supported by the information I've cited from the Introduction.
I misinterpreted your statement earlier. By Introduction you mean
pg 3, not the introduction for these specific sections. I think we can both agree however that this portion of the Codex is limited in scope and should be superceded by the text present in the section in question.
Also, I don't believe that the lables are inexact. It is Chosen Chaos Space Marines and Possessed Chaos Space Marines. You stated earlier that the inclusion of these extra words negates their eligibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are Even Numbers and Odd Numbers or Whole Numbers or Prime Numbers not also Numbers? Just because I've described what type of number it is does not negate its status as a number. This is not meant to be confrontational but a legitimate question. I have seen your posts on these forums previously Nurglitch and your grasp of 'formal logic' seems more academic than mine.
Needless to say, Bile is staying home this week.