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If I was to stab a person, would you consider the knife a weapon?

If I shot someone, would the Gun be considered a weapon?

Now what if I snapped a mans neck with my bare hands?? What would you say the murder weapon was? By the logic I have seen here, there was no weapon as I only have hands, not a gun or a knife.......if they cant find the murder weapon then I can get away scott-free.........

Weirdest example I have ever given, but it kind of shows the silliness of the argument.

not really, the deffrolla is like a 3rd of the size of the vehicle. I can't see how you would destroy it without wrecking the battlewaggon. All it is is a ram that rolls and I dont think you can destroy the ram. the only reason I started this thread was I was thinking of adding another weapon to my battlewaggons because the deffrolla was the only thing on them and I wanted to protect against ganced to death, but after thinking about it... it still doesnt seam like a weapon, it seams like a vehicle upgrade allowing a special kind of ram.


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DJ Illuminati wrote:If I was to stab a person, would you consider the knife a weapon?

If I shot someone, would the Gun be considered a weapon?

Now what if I snapped a mans neck with my bare hands?? What would you say the murder weapon was? By the logic I have seen here, there was no weapon as I only have hands, not a gun or a knife.......if they cant find the murder weapon then I can get away scott-free.........

You would be the weapon, you would go to jail, I could not weapon destroy your hands (the knife and gun are a different story). Game,set,match!

I still think we need a facepalm ork icon.

Grimgob wrote:not really, the deffrolla is like a 3rd of the size of the vehicle. I can't see how you would destroy it without wrecking the battlewaggon. All it is is a ram that rolls and I dont think you can destroy the ram. the only reason I started this thread was I was thinking of adding another weapon to my battlewaggons because the deffrolla was the only thing on them and I wanted to protect against ganced to death, but after thinking about it... it still doesnt seam like a weapon, it seams like a vehicle upgrade allowing a special kind of ram.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DJ Illuminati wrote:If I was to stab a person, would you consider the knife a weapon?

If I shot someone, would the Gun be considered a weapon?

Now what if I snapped a mans neck with my bare hands?? What would you say the murder weapon was? By the logic I have seen here, there was no weapon as I only have hands, not a gun or a knife.......if they cant find the murder weapon then I can get away scott-free.........

You would be the weapon, you would go to jail, I could not weapon destroy your hands (the knife and gun are a different story). Game,set,match!

"I can't see how you would destroy it without wrecking the battlewaggon."
So... the same on a basilisk?
Or manticor?

How about a rule instead of random arbitrary and unrelated examples. (Yes people, 40k does not relate to real life much at all.)

not really, the deffrolla is like a 3rd of the size of the vehicle. I can't see how you would destroy it without wrecking the battlewaggon. All it is is a ram that rolls and I dont think you can destroy the ram. the only reason I started this thread was I was thinking of adding another weapon to my battlewaggons because the deffrolla was the only thing on them and I wanted to protect against ganced to death, but after thinking about it... it still doesnt seam like a weapon, it seams like a vehicle upgrade allowing a special kind of ram.

Deff rollas working on ramming attacks aside...

Size: Depends on the modeller.
"uses the battlewagons size and mass to crush...": It's a fluff argument. What it comes down to is the question of 'does the deff rolla make the battlewagon act differently?' It's all well and good to say that 'the battlewagon is the weapon' but the fact remains that battlewagons without a deff rolla don't kill models during tank shocks (aside from DoG) so clearly the deff rolla is doing something.
"seems like a vehicle upgrade that allows a special kind of tank shock": It changes the tank shock, yes. It does this by adding to the tank shock 'the deff rolla causes d6 strength 10 hits'. The deff rolla is what is causing the hits. Which means that yes, it's technically a special kind of tank shock, but it's still not the tank shock itself causing the damage - because the Deff Rolla is causing the hits. This action includes a to hit roll (d6 number of hits) and a strength value. Which are things that a weapon does.

As for putting weapons on your battlewagon, always toss on a couple of Big Shootas. Otherwise two weapon destroyed results and you're immobilized.

You would be the weapon, you would go to jail, I could not weapon destroy your hands (the knife and gun are a different story). Game,set,match!

In ye olden times, officials would chop off a thieves' hands. It's awfully hard to pick a lock with no fingers. It's very simple to destroy someone's hands, it's just not done and more. Game, set, match, as you say.

Its not a to hit roll. You already hit during movement, its how many wounds it caused and there is no way to resolve your "special tank shock" unless there is a strength value assigned to the damage. Lots of vehicle upgrades make a vehicle act differently, thats the point of an upgrade.

P.S. chopped off hands are just my painboys way sayin its time for more power klaws!

Grimgob wrote:Its not a to hit roll. You already hit during movement, its how many wounds it caused and there is no way to resolve your "special tank shock" unless there is a strength value assigned to the damage. Lots of vehicle upgrades make a vehicle act differently, thats the point of an upgrade.

Yes, it's very similar to a 'to hit' roll. "Causes d6 strength 10 hits". That's hits, not wounds. And yes, there is a strength value associated with it. Strength 10.

Yes, all vehicle upgrades make a vehicle act differently. Putting a big shoota on a Battlewagon makes it act differently too. The question is whether or not an upgrade 'functions as a weapon'. Which a Deff Rolla does - changing the way a vehicle works in a way that allows the vehicle to kill enemy models. It even does this by allowing it to cause hits with a known strength value on the enemy unit, just like other weapons.

Grimgob wrote:Its not a to hit roll. You already hit during movement, its how many wounds it caused and there is no way to resolve your "special tank shock" unless there is a strength value assigned to the damage. Lots of vehicle upgrades make a vehicle act differently, thats the point of an upgrade.

P.S. chopped off hands are just my painboys way sayin its time for more power klaws!

So a heavy flamer is not a weapon..... it doesnt require a roll to hit.........


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Grimgob wrote:

You would be the weapon, you would go to jail, I could not weapon destroy your hands (the knife and gun are a different story). Game,set,match!

so what you are saying is that a weapon destroyed on a deff rolla should be a vehicle wrecked because the vehicle is the medium for the attack.........

I say they cannot be destroyed, John Spencer ruled the same.

Why do you want to have to remove more items before upgrading the damage to immobilized or wrecked?

Flechette dischargers and deff rollas just do not fit into the same category as HK missiles or pintle-mounted items. The latter are much more akin to the items customarily removed by weap-destroyed results. The former are used in quirky ways and do incidental damage.

DJ Illuminati wrote:

so what you are saying is that a weapon destroyed on a deff rolla should be a vehicle wrecked because the vehicle is the medium for the attack.........

"Tank Shock! Tanks may decide to use their mass as a weapon..." I'm sayin weapon destroyed does not effect deffrollas, but a vehicle wrecked would. question:does death or glory stop a heavy bolter? Question: is a ram a weapon sience a ram of a vehicle has a strength assigned to it (each armor point above 10, speed and Mass)? wait its only one hit and you dont roll so it must not be a weapon.

So a heavy flamer is not a weapon..... it doesnt require a roll to hit.........


last time i checked, a heavy flamer had a statline in the back of codexes?

The tank itself is the weapon being used, no rolls to hit, not under the section: weapons at the rear of the ork codex.

kill dem stunties wrote:So a heavy flamer is not a weapon..... it doesnt require a roll to hit.........


last time i checked, a heavy flamer had a statline in the back of codexes?

The tank itself is the weapon being used, no rolls to hit, not under the section: weapons at the rear of the ork codex.

The Witchhunters book doesnt have a profile listing for the Vindicare's rifle or pistol....... does that mean he doesnt get his guns???

I love how people that are proclaiming RAW state that it must be a weapon and then ignore the first line of Tank shock that says the Vehicle itself is used as a weapon.......if you are going to stick to RAW so blindly then I say we should start wrecking vehicles on a weapon destroyed roll.......

Or how about the first line on page 27 of the BRB that say "Every weapon has a profile that consists of several elements.........Name, Range, Strength, Armour Piercing, and type.......In addition to its type, a weapon may have some additional characteristics that define the way they work.

The Deff Rolla give us those elements, Strength 10, How it hits, how many hits, and characteristics of how it works........sounds like it meets the needs for a weapon.....but how would someone put all those unique rules on a stat line......oh yea... it would say to refer to the page the weapon appears on because it is too complicated for a simple Range-str-ap-type proflie

Orkestra wrote:Oh damn, I just agreed with DoW.

Victory!! I wouldn't worry though, I agree with you all the time. I just keep quiet about it for fear of being labeled a 'Green Supporter'...

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all night. Tip your waitress.

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As for the question at hand, it really boils down to the rules specifically stating that "vehicle upgrades that function as weapons" are viable targets.

That specification is in place because the result is already called 'Weapon Destroyed'. This sentence addresses possible exceptions that, by definition, do not qualify as weapons (which are [arguably] only pieces of wargear that have weapon statlines) yet still cause the same effects that are usually only caused by weapons.

Deff Rollas and Wrecking Balls clearly fall into this category and I don't think there is a genuinely valid argument to the contrary. All you need to do is ask yourself the following after getting a 'Weapon Destroyed' result:

Is it a weapon? No.
Is it a vehicle upgrade? Yes.
Does it function as a weapon? Yes (namely that it causes a specific number of hits, which may cause wounds based on a Strength/Toughness ratio, to specific models)
Therefore they may be removed as a result of a 'Weapon Destroyed' result.

As for stuff like Boarding Planks? Well that's another story.

DoW