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tiekwando wrote:Gets out dark angel codex...
"If Belial is in the army, Deathwing Terminator squads may be treated as a troops choice as well as an elite choice."
Considering "treated" and "count as" are the same thing, by your argument a deathwing army is illegal.
Also why are you bringing in scoring, there is absolutely no mention of it in the rule and GW usually will write that in (Pedro). On the other hand the way it is written you cannot take them as an elite (unlike Deathwing which states they may be taken as elites and troops). This seems pretty clear as to RAI and RAW.

Why are YOU bringing in FOC selections, there is absolutely no mention of it in the rule and GW usually will write that in (Orks, Space Marines)

I believe that the "count as troops" constitutes a reference to the FOC. As far as my understanding "troops" is a Force Orginization Chart slot, along with elites, heavy support, fast attack and HQs.
My understanding from the rule comes from this, if there was a unit that was normally fast attack but had a rule stating, "when you have 10 models or more they count as elites" then I would assume they would occupy the elite slot in the FOC when you have ten or more models. Now I have not seen this rule in any GW book so it may be that this wording is irrelevant, but if it were in a book what would your response be?

Obviously they remain fast attack but get to score as elites. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh! </Sarcasm>

Mother of god, I don't understand how such clear rules go through this vicious mangling by Internauts.

Wolfguard count as troops means that Grimnar is so awesome that his basic troopers are the Wolf Guard. He's so cool and shiny that the ultra elite look like regular d00dz in comparison.

This is actually quite limiting because you're stuck with 6 FOC slots to get in all the Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard that you want to cram into your army. This is actually a slight problem for Drop Podders.

This is actually quite liberating because you can take what amounts to six Elite choices, letting you use Wolf Guard as the backbone to your force with Lone Wolves and Dreadnoughts stuck on in addition.

It's not good, bad, or sideways; it's just different. Different is okay, I know it's a bold new horizon full of terrifying mystery, but if you hold my hand we will get through this.

sourclams wrote:Mother of god, I don't understand how such clear rules go through this vicious mangling by Internauts.

Wolfguard count as troops means that Grimnar is so awesome that his basic troopers are the Wolf Guard. He's so cool and shiny that the ultra elite look like regular d00dz in comparison.

This is actually quite limiting because you're stuck with 6 FOC slots to get in all the Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard that you want to cram into your army. This is actually a slight problem for Drop Podders.

This is actually quite liberating because you can take what amounts to six Elite choices, letting you use Wolf Guard as the backbone to your force with Lone Wolves and Dreadnoughts stuck on in addition.

It's not good, bad, or sideways; it's just different. Different is okay, I know it's a bold new horizon full of terrifying mystery, but if you hold my hand we will get through this.

QFT

you sir, have won this thread.

cmon gwar, dont ignore a rebutting point and comment on something unimportant ... thats a copout

"If your army includes a Captain on Space Marine bike, Space Marine Bike squads of at least five models may be taken as Troops choices."

and

"A warboss allows one Meganobz or Nobz mob to be taken as a Troops choice."

right there, seems to imply to me that you cant take them as troop choices, but only counts as for scoring ...

This is the first time ive ever not agreed with gwar :(

Meh, I am tired of arguing the RaW with people who twist the wording to suit their "RaI". All it ends up is them flaming me and then I am the one getting Warnings/Bans.

Also, yes, the wording is different, but that doesn't mean the effect is. "Counts as" = "Is in every single way".
If it has said "Count as troops for the purposes of scoring", then they would remain elites. However, that is not what the rule says.

This is pretty cut and dry.
If you take Logan ... The Wolf Guard count as Troops.
Therefore they can be taken in any of the six Troop choice slots and count towards the mandatory requirement for Troops.

Well, wolves counting as troops actually does have the advantage of being able to take more then 3 units of them. However, my question.. and I apologize if I have missed this amongst all the arguing, but if they count as troops, can they no longer count as an Elite too? Say I want to take Wolves as a troops choice, I want to take four packs of wolves, can I split them up and say two will be troops and two will be fast attack leaving me with four open slots for scoring troops units? Or do I HAVE to use them as troops?

Correct Matt
"Count as Troops" means that they are changing from [class] Elites to [class] Troops.
You could take 6 units of Wolf Guard if you wanted to but not 9.
Jeez... that's an expensive army there!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
missed the last part in my response. There are some rules regarding them joining other units that I am not familiar with. From what I understand of what the RAW is, instead of using Elite Slots to take Wolf Guard, you now use Troop slots. Their other special rules are unchanged AFAIK

Yup, Count as troops = Are troops, so an army with Logan cannot take Wolf Guard as Elites

That makes sense, and I guess that just adds more balance to the idea. Now that I think of it probably should have just discerned that on my own.. but oh well.

This probably means I won't see as many wolf armies as I had thought.. which I think is sad since I'd love to see people use the wolf packs instead of making terminator heavy armies.. which is probably what's going to happen a lot. But since wolves can capture (Although they can still contest) it will limit your capturing units.. hrm.. I still think wolves are awesome, as long as the models look good. Still haven't seen the lone wolf models.

Wolves will still see use, they are a 8 Point 18" Threat Range Assault Unit of awesome. What you wont see is Canis, because he makes you eat up Troop Slots.

Gwar! wrote:Wolves will still see use, they are a 8 Point 18" Threat Range Assault Unit of awesome. What you wont see is Canis, because he makes you eat up Troop Slots.

I think the biggest problem with Canis is one of his better advantages would be giving wolves near him LD8, but a hero with saga of the wolfkin give them LD7 already, and if you are using wolves in a serious capacity you will want it for the I5.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and bring up some RAI.

When the wolves were still being rumored, GW let leak that Grimnar was going to make Wolf Guard count as troops choices.

Then they went on to say that this would make the all-terminator SW army possible.

Which would ONLY be possible if wolf guard could actually be troops choices.


I think people are reading too much on the dictionary definition of the phrase "counts as" and not enough into the GW terminology of "counts as". According to the dictionary, counts-as means that something is treated the same as, but it really isn't. In GW rules standpoint, counts-as means they ARE. I will be having my Emperor's Children models count as Space Wolves. But, if I have an ability in my army that says "all space wolves become fearless", are you going to say that my units don't get it, because while they "count as" space wolves, they're actually chaos space marine models? For all intents and purposes, and rules-wise, my models will be space wolves with a tasty altered backstory [or just too long in the EoT when they incorporated corrupted 13th company and learned from their tactics]. For all intents and purposes, wolf guard are troops in an army that includes Logan.