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Could we keep this thread more general? I'd like to see a solution that addresses all of these types problems in some way, not just the one case... since this seems to happen a lot, unfortunately :(

Once on eBay, I bought an older and hard to get collectible. I paid about $100 dollars for it. The seller had numerous positive feedbacks and a couple of neutral ones spread out over a long time.

What I received was a box. A very thin box similar to the thickness of a GW model box, in other words, it was barely cardstock. It was half smashed, poorly taped closed (literally a couple of pieces of scotch over the closures), devoid of packaging of any kind and empty. The box had a sticker with my address on it but otherwise still displayed the advert of the original contents of said box. I had never seen anything wrapped so poorly (if indeed it was in there at all).

I emailed the seller, I notified eBay, created a lost item report through the Post Office, yadda, yadda, yadda. I come to find out the seller also never paid for snail-mail insurance even though I paid him to do so. I never hear back from the seller. Hmm, suddenly he gets a rash of negatives on his profile and eBay essentially tells me he has disappeared like a fart in the wind. He apparently went on a spree of scamming and vanished, more-or-less. I don't know if they ever caught up with him as I certainly never heard about it again. Why he sent presumably empty boxes and/or wrongs items to people at all made no sense.

I wouldn't be surprised if this person was still trading on eBay under a different account, either.

When all was said and done two truths remained; I was mad and I was out $100. Period, end of story, fini, complete, finished.

My only two points regarding my little soap opera are this:

1.) Caveat Emptor is true no matter what you do in life. Sometimes things just go wrong whether someone caused it or not. I gotta move on.
2.) Regardless of any of the "Safeguards" in place from eBay, a site dedicated to "safe" trading, I was still out $100. I paid the price, no one else.

One last comment: I still trade when able and I have had many more good experiences than bad. I would estimate several hundred to one, actually.

A photo of the merchandise should help, uploaded to photobucket and linked across (not cluttering up the gallery).

But these witch hunts I keep seeing, along with X Files style suspicion of multiple accounts and trade conspiracies, really needs to stop.

If accord cannot be reached, perhaps it has come time for Dakka to simply delete the swap shop and just link to Rogue Market and Barter Town and have done.

It's worth shutting down the swap shop to be rid of those nasty threads where one person says they've been ripped off and then a bunch of (usual suspects) all jump in to cry out how terrible the bastard is who ripped off the OP... then the other trader finds the thread and explains the situation and 8/10 times it's not nearly so cut and dry as people were hoping.

Lets stop those witch hunts firstly.

These so called "witch hunts" brings scam victim's items back.

We have seen plenty of repeat offenders that people continued to trade with because the incident wasnt known or open to the public.

The "mob" isnt a pleasant thing , but its necessary.
Ppl scammed lost more than just their items. They also lose trust and faith to other members , its depressing no matter how much or little their valuable was lost.

LunaHound wrote:
These so called "witch hunts" brings scam victim's items back.

We have seen plenty of repeat offenders that people continued to trade with because the incident wasnt known or open to the public.

The "mob" isnt a pleasant thing , but its necessary.
Ppl scammed lost more than just their items. They also lose trust and faith to other members , its depressing no matter how much or little their valuable was lost.

The mob is most certainly NOT necessary. The majority of people adding their own 2 cents to the thread have absolutely no vested interest in the transaction and most certainly post very strong opinions before both sides have been heard.

Perhaps the threads should carry a rule, only those who have traded with either party in the past should contribute, else we devolve into soundbites and point scoring and most certainly the accusation of drama and gak stirring.

Those threads should most certainly NOT be used to continue an argument on the wider issue of moderation or other issues in relation to the swap shop. Those discussions can take place here or in discussions and then cite those threads as supporting evidence. What we are currently seeing is dispute threads being hijacked to continue certain folks 'crusades' about the wider issues and that usually results in the other side of the individual trade, the one who hasn't posted, becoming labelled as the bad guy before they have even arrived.

The threat of being named and shamed in such a post and having your rep ruined must now be considered a real problem, and where does that end? Blackmail? Forcing a more one sided trade or 'I'll make a post about you...'?

These threads as they are currently being made ARE witch hunts and ARE mob rule and I warn the board that innocent dakkites will be unfairly branded in them if they are not stopped.

1. Some of the more reputable traders could make a little profit by offering a re-mail service..

Party A and Party B both mail to a reputable trader, who would open and check contents of the package( to ensure they are not remailing illegal materials) when they recieve both packages mail them to their destination.
(for double postage and nominal fee)

Perhaps a good solution for large scale trades?
It would cost more, but you can at least expect to recieve your goods..

2. Could someone please write a tutorial/article on how to properly ship models?

The Dakka swap shop is the sole reason why I joined this site, I have a tremendous amount of Warhammer and 40k stuff to sell, I have conducted only 1 trade here on Dakka and I believe it will be my only one.

I have around 100,000 pts and 25 fully painted 40k armies to sell/trade for a few different people. As well as bitz from RT to current editions.

My first few trades were to be 'fielding' attempts and they failed.

I was asked to try to sell/trade here specifically by some ancient dakkaites (guys who actually went to the store and knew russ and natalie) From now on I will be doing my business on Ebay.

Big'Uns wrote:1. Some of the more reputable traders could make a little profit by offering a re-mail service..

Party A and Party B both mail to a reputable trader, who would open and check contents of the package( to ensure they are not remailing illegal materials) when they recieve both packages mail them to their destination.
(for double postage and nominal fee)

Perhaps a good solution for large scale trades?
It would cost more, but you can at least expect to recieve your goods..

2. Could someone please write a tutorial/article on how to properly ship models?

The Dakka swap shop is the sole reason why I joined this site, I have a tremendous amount of Warhammer and 40k stuff to sell, I have conducted only 1 trade here on Dakka and I believe it will be my only one.

I have around 100,000 pts and 25 fully painted 40k armies to sell/trade for a few different people. As well as bitz from RT to current editions.

My first few trades were to be 'fielding' attempts and they failed.

I was asked to try to sell/trade here specifically by some ancient dakkaites (guys who actually went to the store and knew russ and natalie) From now on I will be doing my business on Ebay.

1) Im not sure how remailing service works ( isnt that just redirecting a problem trader to the middle person instead? + extra shipping fees? )
2) I would love to trade with you , as we both probably can use some units to fill !

LunaHound wrote:
1) Im not sure how remailing service works ( isnt that just redirecting a problem trader to the middle person instead? + extra shipping fees?

The remailer does not ship out until they recieve both packages. Secondary shipping should be paid in advance. Easily calculable through USPS.com In the event of a bad trader the secondary shipping becomes return instead.

Big'Uns wrote:

The remailer does not ship out until they recieve both packages. Secondary shipping should be paid in advance. Easily calculable through USPS.com In the event of a bad trader the secondary shipping becomes return instead.

Ohhh..... so basically both people for example ships to me.

If only one is received , and the other didnt , i mail yours back ?
hence you only lose on the shipping cost?

I see !

Exactly, It's done all the time for sensitive information in the legitimate business world. For unpatented or uncopyrighted material.

You don't need to trust the other party, you only have to trust the remailer.

Simply adding another stage to the process and potentially bringing in another party to potentially face further issue and accusation.

The poor trader can state they sent something to the reputable (ascertained how?) dakkite and the reputable dakkite can find themselves becoming disreputable in short order.

Adding a 3rd party to mail to isn't going to ease a process IMO.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Simply adding another stage to the process and potentially bringing in another party to potentially face further issue and accusation.

The poor trader can state they sent something to the reputable (ascertained how?) dakkite and the reputable dakkite can find themselves becoming disreputable in short order.

Adding a 3rd party to mail to isn't going to ease a process IMO.

Can be done if both side have tracking and confirmation. Its costly ( pretty much double the shipping ) , but i see how it can work.
and its ideal for people that would rather spend extra shipping then lose a whole $400 army .

I like the idea.

Of course , this would only work if both side have absolute trust for the middle person.
but then again , thats not too much difference then "you send first , i mail mine out when i receive yours " either.

Big'Uns wrote:
1. Some of the more reputable traders could make a little profit by offering a re-mail service..
...

2. Could someone please write a tutorial/article on how to properly ship models?

The Dakka swap shop is the sole reason why I joined this site, I have a tremendous amount of Warhammer and 40k stuff to sell, I have conducted only 1 trade here on Dakka and I believe it will be my only one.

I have around 100,000 pts and 25 fully painted 40k armies to sell/trade for a few different people. As well as bitz from RT to current editions.

My first few trades were to be 'fielding' attempts and they failed.

I was asked to try to sell/trade here specifically by some ancient dakkaites (guys who actually went to the store and knew russ and natalie) From now on I will be doing my business on Ebay.

1. Yeah, someone could set it up (sort of like an escrow service). It's not something that Dakka would officially sponsor, though.
2. That tutorial is actually a good idea. We'll have to conjure up someone to write up a good guideline for that.

As for your experiences here - I'm sorry to hear, though I do feel like its unfair to judge the entirety of the Swap Shop with a single trade. I do admit that I'm kind of surprised someone would've immediately recommend Dakka as a Swapping Point, mainly since it's admittedly not one of our stronger sides. From the sounds of things you are a heavy trader and as such, the Swap Shop will most likely be unsuitable for your needs. As others have pointed out in previous posts, Bartertown or Rogue Market may fill your needs more sufficiently.

Jin wrote:
1. Yeah, someone could set it up (sort of like an escrow service). It's not something that Dakka would officially sponsor, though.

It's something I understand working, but to the same extent is just as likely to generate problems (or moreso given that you're adding to process, not streamlining it).

But it isn't covering what is the root cause of the debate here, Dakka is not moderating the actual 'trades' that take place and is not taking ownership or responsibility for what goes on there.

Basically Yakface has cleared a field on the farm and said whoever wants to set up a stall there, do so and play nice. Mods and Admin here are not a trading standards firm and the administration does not want this forum encroaching on territory that is already comfortably covered by other sites, some of whom even advertise on dakka.

Even if you the traders decide you wish to incorporate posting to a mutually agreed 3rd party before hand, it still won't be condoned or condemned by Dakka as a site.

They don't want this made that formal and if you keep pushing for it, eventually it's going to bite you the trader on the ass, because the moderation and administration will simply save themselves the hassle and close that area down. The Name and Shame threads are going to speed that up, because sooner or latter one of those threads is going to explode and do some real damage, when it does, they will likely pull the plug.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Jin wrote:
1. Yeah, someone could set it up (sort of like an escrow service). It's not something that Dakka would officially sponsor, though.

It's something I understand working, but to the same extent is just as likely to generate problems (or moreso given that you're adding to process, not streamlining it).

But it isn't covering what is the root cause of the debate here, Dakka is not moderating the actual 'trades' that take place and is not taking ownership or responsibility for what goes on there.

Basically Yakface has cleared a field on the farm and said whoever wants to set up a stall there, do so and play nice. Mods and Admin here are not a trading standards firm and the administration does not want this forum encroaching on territory that is already comfortably covered by other sites, some of whom even advertise on dakka.

Even if you the traders decide you wish to incorporate posting to a mutually agreed 3rd party before hand, it still won't be condoned or condemned by Dakka as a site.

They don't want this made that formal and if you keep pushing for it, eventually it's going to bite you the trader on the ass, because the moderation and administration will simply save themselves the hassle and close that area down. The Name and Shame threads are going to speed that up, because sooner or latter one of those threads is going to explode and do some real damage, when it does, they will likely pull the plug.

Yep.

If the Swap Shop does close, then are people given a set time to finish there current trades?

Are they meant to finish the trade by PM's?

I could see this being a problem if the Swap Shop does close.

Likely to be some issues if the Swap Shop closed, though given Yakface's post, I doubt that that would be an issue to worry about.

I'd just like to state here that we SwapMods ARE actually hammering some kind of new guidelines for bad trades. Unfortunately, I was convalescing for the past fortnight or so, and my compatriots were kind enough to delay the issue until I recovered sufficently to have some input on the matter. As I'm now recovered, we should be wheeling something new out in the next week or so.

I agree about ending the "witchhunts" :-/. It's helpful to ask for details / help work out what happened, but the accused needs to get their say, too!

I think we should focus on making the SwapShop the best / most useful place possible... rather than on whether or not it will close! I really enjoy the swapshop and have had my best trade experiences there .

Also, it's great that you guys are hammering out guidelines! I'm a math teacher, so I don't know what convalescing? is but I was sick for about 2 weeks, and I just told my kids they'd have to find out their grades when the report cards come out. Can't push too hard!

Thanks for the effort, SwapMods

How does witchhunts get peoples stuff back anyway?


"Oh no, people on the Internet hate me, I must give there stuff back!"

RiTides wrote:Perhaps the "warning list" could be a thread that:

1) Could only be posted in by moderators
2) Could have clearly posted at the top that in order to add someone to the list, two or more "reputable" people (determined by post count? date of joining? something?) would have to refer them to a SwapMod, with details (such as emails, pictures, or records of PMs)

Too complicated? Too much work? Both?

I'm very happy with the swap shop (it's my favorite part of the site). I also think a lot of these issues simply weren't voiced before, since there were no mods... so at least now they're getting voiced and addressed as best as possible, imho

I'm with RiTides on this one. I'm relatively new to Dakka, and even newer to the Swap Shop. So far I have had nothing but positive experiences, which I like to tell myself is due to my own caution. Whenever I consider a trade, I do three things. First, I check post count and date joined of the potential trader. That's the newest part of my policy and I'm darn lucky that I didn't get burned on my first few trades. Second, I head on over to the reputable traders list and look for the potential trader. Even if I can't find them in the actual list, I use the search to see if they were recently recommended. Finally, I search the rest of the swap shop forum for a bad trader thread on said user. I usually use a search line something like "username report". After sifting through the search hits, I'm ready to start the trading process. (Exchange pictures, contact info, addresses, items)

Where I'm going with this is that I like to think of myself as the average trader, and as the average trader part of my MO is to look for bad trade reports. With the heavy atmosphere of Caveat Emptor in the Swap Shop (which I don't mind at all and thought was quite clear) I think a mods only "traders in question" thread would help out users like me. I'm looking for transaction report threads anyway, why make them harder to find? I understand that the rights and reputation of the trader in question need to be protected. That's why I support the idea of making it a mods-only affair. It would be a simple addition to the system currently in place. A user posts a bad trader report, mods see this, lock the thread, and handle the rest over PM. Now I understand that such a plan would entail considerable babysitting for the mods, I recognize that flaw. However, I think it would be easier for mods to watch over the PM's of interested parties rather than put out flamewars in the Swap Shop trade disputes. Every time I see a transaction report thread degenerate into namecalling I have to shake my head. Why on earth would people post so passionately on something they had no stake in to begin with? I suppose that's one of the rules of the internet I never read.

Sadly, I'm in college for engineering, not as a law student. I don't know the legal definition of slander/defamation in the United States, let alone the many other countries that Dakka services. So maybe a "bad traders thread" would indeed be defamatory, and I don't want to see Dakka shut down over something so small. However, barring a legal issue RiTides' plan has potential that I believe should be explored. To be honest, I would be completely willing to throw my hat in the ring to moderate such a thread. Of course, I know that a moderator's position requires time and energy, both of which I have in abundance. I'm on the forum quite a bit, I might as well be doing something useful with my time. I'm sure however that there are more prerequisites to becoming a moderator than simply volunteering, please let me know what they are as I am very interested if we choose to go forward with a plan such as I have outlined.

Finally, I would like to thank all of the mods, especially Yakface, Legoburner, Jin, Ketara and GoFenris for keeping up a great Swap Shop and a great forum in general. Keep up the good work guys!

I can definitely see that there are two sides to this one. On the one hand, we'd all like more information when deciding whether or not to make a trade. On the other, who decides what (or who) gets listed in such a thread?

An alternate suggestion to this one was to put a note by a user's name in the reputable traders list if they had an unresolved Transaction Report. This would mean a report which they did not come on to clear up, or the user who had posted it did not agree that it was resolved.

This might be simpler and would give people like romulus571 a heads up that there is a TR about the person they're thinking of trading with when they look at that list, and then they can go dig up the report and find out if they really think it was an issue or not.

That said, I think you do more research than most, romulus571! I actually almost never check that thread . I usually go by the impression I get from communicating with a person... if they respond politely/timely/professionally, etc. I go forward with the trade. If I get a "bad vibe" from them, I don't. Obviously, that's not the best system

I'd also like to point out that I posted that in October... I don't want to bandwagon on current Swapshop events here. A lot of people are thinking it'd be nice to have an indication of when someone has an unresolved trade dispute on Dakka- it's just hard to know the best (fairest, feasible, etc.) way of doing that.

I agree with Ketara's statement over in the SwapShop (quoted from yakface) that a "scammer's list" is not a good idea at all. It could lead to a lot of bickering... and maybe what I was suggesting above in October is just a polite name for a scammer's list . But maybe including a note (something like "TR" in red font?) on the reputable traders list, next to a person's username, indicating that an unresolved TR is out there about them, might be a good middle ground?

It wouldn't indicate that they were at fault, just that it was unresolved, so that people could search for the thread and decide for themselves. Right now the TRs seem to be working reasonably well, imho, and this would just point people in the direction of something that is already established... rather than crossing a line in the sand for Dakka (that other trading sites can maintain, but is too much logistically for this site to handle fairly) about putting out a black list.

Thoughts?

(smacks forehead) I should really check dates on these things before I post. I followed the link from the Swap Shop argument without checking to see which came first. Didn't mean to thread necro!

But yeah, a little RT marker, a red dot, anything to let me know. I think many users would find that immensely useful.

No scammer list , understandable i guess.

How about , disputing / unresolved list.