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thebetter1 wrote:Also, I found another indication that flamers are placed parallel to the table. Check the ruins section. The only argument I can see against this is that the ruin rules completely override template rules, which would mean templates allow cover saves in ruins, so this can be applied to non-ruin situations.

The rules for Ruins are slightly different to the regular rules to allow for multiple levels. They have no effect on Template weapons firing anywhere else on the table.

Mannahnin wrote:I recognize that Insaniak's description more accurately matches the RaW, but it's too counter-intuitive for me for the flamer to hit fewer guys if the firing model is standing an inch away from them.

Actually, given that the flamer is firing a stream of liquid, having a model standing an inch away should reduce the range of it, since that first guy is going to cop most of the stream.

The whole point of template weapons is that they're more effective if you're standing the correct distance away, so that your target is in the 'sweet spot' of the template.

insaniak wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:Also, I found another indication that flamers are placed parallel to the table. Check the ruins section. The only argument I can see against this is that the ruin rules completely override template rules, which would mean templates allow cover saves in ruins, so this can be applied to non-ruin situations.

The rules for Ruins are slightly different to the regular rules to allow for multiple levels. They have no effect on Template weapons firing anywhere else on the table.

Are you telling me I don't get a cover save if I'm hit by a template when I am in a ruin? If not, then these rules are not a replacement, which would cause flamers to not be fired into ruins at all, as the ruin rules tell you to not place it in contact with the firer's base. If you also believe that you can fire a flamer into a ruin, then the rules for placing parallel templates are always used, even outside of ruins.

thebetter1 wrote:Are you telling me I don't get a cover save if I'm hit by a template when I am in a ruin?

Since the rules for ruins don't stipulate any change to the normal rules for templates and cover, the normal rules would apply.

If not, then these rules are not a replacement,

I didn't say that they were a replacement. I said that they worked slightly differently.

The normal rules for templates tell you to place the small end of the template against the base of the firer.
The rules for ruins allow to to instead target a specific level of the ruin by holding the template level at an approprite height.

The fact that ruins have their own rules for placing the template has no effect on how templates are used elsewhere, or on any other rules that apply to templates.

insaniak wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I recognize that Insaniak's description more accurately matches the RaW, but it's too counter-intuitive for me for the flamer to hit fewer guys if the firing model is standing an inch away from them.

Actually, given that the flamer is firing a stream of liquid, having a model standing an inch away should reduce the range of it, since that first guy is going to cop most of the stream.

The whole point of template weapons is that they're more effective if you're standing the correct distance away, so that your target is in the 'sweet spot' of the template.

If we’re talking about how a flamethrower works IRL, then the user would be dragging the stream sideways/around the first guy to get the whole group anyway. IMO the "whole point of templates" is to be able to hit a bunch of guys under the template. If we can usually only get around the same number of guys as a blast marker, it doesn't seem fully functional to me. I can see where you’re coming from, though.

DogOfWar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"anything under the template is hit" Sounds like permission to hit anything under the template to me. Which is why there is the added restriction of covering as much of the target unit as possible....

I agree.

My problem is that you must place the template with the narrow end touching the base of the model that is firing the template and such that the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit. Then it states that any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

Dayum...It seems to be absolutely right... so that means.. if you targer something that's behind another unit.. you do hit models in the unit in-between cause there's some of them under the template...

It seems pretty weird rule-wise to hit something you're not targetting though. o_O

That's the beauty of template weapons.
It can also occur with blast weapons, if the blast scatters you could end up hitting your own models, and you can never intentionally target them.

I have ran into the valk problem too many times, my friends and i have a house rule that stops flamers affecting high level flyers. (We use alot of forgeworld fighters) after all, you cant torch an airplane when it is flying so far overhead. I understand the real rules, but we forgo them for a more realistic outcome.

Apocalypse covers flyers, in that regard.

"Weapons using any teardrop-shaped template cannot hit flyers" page 94

insaniak wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:Are you telling me I don't get a cover save if I'm hit by a template when I am in a ruin?

Since the rules for ruins don't stipulate any change to the normal rules for templates and cover, the normal rules would apply.

If not, then these rules are not a replacement,

I didn't say that they were a replacement. I said that they worked slightly differently.

The normal rules for templates tell you to place the small end of the template against the base of the firer.
The rules for ruins allow to to instead target a specific level of the ruin by holding the template level at an approprite height.

The fact that ruins have their own rules for placing the template has no effect on how templates are used elsewhere, or on any other rules that apply to templates.

So you're claiming that the ruin rules simply add to the normal template rules? This opens a pretty serious can of worms, with specific rules not overriding general ones but both coexisting...

thebetter1 wrote:So you're claiming that the ruin rules simply add to the normal template rules?

No, I'm saying that when firing into Ruins you place the template horizontally above the models instead of touching the small end of the template to the firer's base.

You do this because the rules for Ruins say that you do. All other rules for templates apply as normal.


If you're not firing into Ruins, you place the small end of the template touching the firer's base. You do this because the rules for templates say that you do. The rules for firing a template weapon into Ruins do not apply in this case, because there is no Ruin involved.

Trukks/Battlewagons can get an upgrade for 5 pts(10?) called "Reinforced Ram" that allows them to tank shock.