Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Danny Internets wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm sorry, but I still dont buy this arguement.

Not when the top players on the results sheets are generally the ones that are winning all the games.

When the overall winners begin to frequently have two losses for the weekend...I'll start beleiving this sob story. As of right now the guys taking home the trophies generally are also kicking tail on the tables.

The "top players" are the top players because they consistently reach the top ranks of the garbage hobby competitions. They aren't the top competitive players, they're the top hobbyists.

And who are these "top players" who have been frequently winning national competitions this year? I'm not being facetious, I'd really like to know. While I haven't memorized the rosters of these major indie GTs, I've read the winners and don't recall seeing the same player twice yet.

some top players and yes these guys consistently finish high in most events they attend.

Marc p.
Mike M.
Scott s.
Greg S.
Bill K.

there thats five, each one of these have multiple "big" event Wins.

you call it being the best hobbyist but being the best means adapting to what is given.

I would have won,
but the missions suck
but the terrian was horrible
but kill points really hurt my mech list versus some guy with only 5 killpoints.
but my painting isn't great
but people think I am a jerk.

these are all excuses by people who failed to adapt.

I know if I play one of the above guys, I have to play a flawless game or I will get massacred as these guys are smart. they will make me pay for every mistake.

Good (if a trifle warm) discussion.

There have been a couple of unnecessary shots at former or non-Dakka members. Please remember that attacks against individuals are verboten. Keep arguments focused on arguments and ideas. Not on people with whom you disagree.

augustus5 wrote:

Quite simply because the hardest lists on paper often are not the hardest lists on the table.

I would agree with this statement. I have looked long and hard at a seer council on jetbike army and in my minds eye I can't be as confident with it as I could be with more basic lists. When it works, it works great, but when it doesn't work there is almost no hope. If you want to win large tournaments then you need to be able to lose some things and still have a better than average chance to win.

Maybe these 'best of' lists aren't that good. I have never seen one myself, on paper that I know of at least. In 3rd-4th edition I played an Oblit IW lists that was fairly common. It had answers to everything and I liked it. I abandoned it when siren came out because I had no counter to it. I couldn't play a list that would lose to one list so easily even though it was awesome against so many other things.

Most of the one-trick pony lists (or ones close to this) have a terrible counter to them and if someone brings that counter they will generally lose. Now most of these counters are not that expensive and can be incorporated into standard lists fairly easily. If you take the counters into your standard list you will beat those over the top lists and still beat the average field. You might not slaughter the average field as well as the one off lists will, but you will beat everyone in the end.

Can someone post these 'great lists'? I'm seriously in the dark about most of them. I figure they are Lash/Oblit chaos, Jetseer Eldar, and that's where my understanding starts to get fuzzy. Nob Bikers aren't up there anymore are they? There are so many easy counter to that lists now.

@Darkwynn

You have to admit, you also got some pretty sweet match-ups. No hard counters to your list at all at the finals. I can't speak for you qualifiers and semi locations, because I wasn't there. Also, I noticed there wasn't as many "top players" at the ard boyz finals this year as there have been in previous years. I'm not sure why they weren't there, but I was a lot happier concerning my chances seeing they weren't I can tell you . Admittedly I didn't place in the top 3 again ... but those are a few mitigating factors that no doubt help people win.

Congrats are still in order for winning of course, my point is not to take away from you win. Simply to discuss the circumstances at hand (point of this thread). And somewhat to play the devil's advocate of course.

I can think of two main explanations for this. I don't know which, if either, is true, but I greatly suspect that at least one of the following statements is correct:

1. People don't know what's good. Armies that people think are bad win because those armies are actually good and the conventional wisdom is wrong. The 40k competitive scene is in a state of disarray right now and cannot make accurate predictions as to what's good and bad.

2. Army strength is subordinate to player skill. Armies that may be suboptimal are winning because the players who run them make up for it.

Hard lists on paper don't factor player skill and luck (in several factors).

It's simply a case of needing to play better. Even if it is a comp heavy enviornment, the better players will still score high in battle points.

Discussing the merits of armylists makes for easier conversations online. Just compare the number of armylists that get posted opposed to how many discussions of (actual) tactics. Armylist discussion takes up more time online and gets more exposure. Therefore, one may infer that armylists are more important to win a game rather than tactics (IE: knowing how to play).

I think it is because the real game doesn't match the theoretical meta game.

In the theoretical metagame, not only are you playing the hardest list (or one of them), but so are all your opponents.

In a land where all your opponents are running mech, meltaguns are king.

In reality, there are plenty of people, at every tournament, who don't read forums, who pick lists because they like the models, who are in it for the painting, or who are following fluff rather than trends. You have people who are so die-hard about 'their' army that they've got tattoos to prove it, and won't stop playing their Tau despite failing to win ever.

When these people, many of whom are good players, but not super-competitive, run into the highly-tailored-to-beat-the-meta-game players, many of whom are not good players, the guys running the tailored lists are not only back-footed, they're left without the tools to do the job.

If you designed your with the idea that melta-guns were king, and ended up playing against a monolith, good luck to you, cause you'd need it.

In the land of theory, no one needs to prepare to fight a monolith. The odds of you playing against one are minimal. But in reality, that's the match-up you draw, and now you're on the lower tables, not-coincidently where a higher percentage of the off-standard builds are also found.

So, the kind of 'a bit of everything' lists that DarthDiggler and Blackmoor ran aren't following the trends, and they're just fine against opponents that also aren't following the trends. They've even got the advantage that the guys who are following the trends don't necessarily know how to fight their lists, or don't have the tools to do so.

I think some of the regular Gt players didn't go to the hard boyz because of the august first round.

It's a lovely summer day. Go to the beach or go to a store that is 110 degrees and smells of gamer funk.
I know I was at a beach with inquistor Malice.

skkipper wrote:I think some of the regular Gt players didn't go to the hard boyz because of the august first round.

It's a lovely summer day. Go to the beach or go to a store that is 110 degrees and smells of gamer funk.
I know I was at a beach with inquistor Malice.

So that's what you guys were doing.

Well thanks in advance to you guys, (and the other "top players" who didn't show up to the Ard Boyz this year) for not coming and stomping our faces again. You should do that more often. Makes us people whom have never won a major event before feel like we have a chance.

skkipper

I bet you guys had lots of lotions with you.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:skkipper

I bet you guys had lots of lotions with you.

G

Sparky is so dreamy.

seriously, I hope next years hardboyz starts in the fall. Summer gaming just isn't for me.

God loves the Irish...



And so do I!

It starts in the early spring.

Those are some saggy saggy boobs for a girl that young and that skinny. I guess god loves the irish the same way he loves the platypus, he doesnt care about appearance.

that's right May 15th starts 40k next year.

A couple things

First of all, the 40k tournament scene in the US is not all that competitive. So most of the people who attend these tournaments are locals or withing 4 or so hours of the place. Yes some people fly in, but a lot either can't afford to or don't have the time or don't want to waste money on a tournament that requires a large amount of luck to win.

Luck plays a huge factor into these things, no matter how you want to argue it. First off, you need to pull 5 players who are below you enough in skill that you can massacre all/most of them.

2nd you need to never face any counter lists to your own in the first couple rounds, before they get sorted out.

3rd, you still need your dice to be close to average. You can be a great player but if you dice fail you, you aren't going to win. (for reference, I shot my entire tau army into 2 rhinos in a game last week. 4 railguns + 18 missile pod shots and 9 str 6 plasma, end result, 1 TL bolter destroyed.) Yea, very little chance of me pulling off a massacre when I can't even hurt his mobility turn 1.


#2
And I may be way off base here, but this is the community as a whole. (both sides, not pointing fingers)

When people become good players in this hobby, they seem to become very very bullheading. Claiming their way is right and no other persons opinion matters. So a lot of people going to Stelek for advice are new players who want to up their game. This game is very challenging to get good at. A simple good list isn't going to hold your hand and get you massacres. You needs months of playing to become even passably good. And thanks to the nature of our game (time to play it) its difficult to get in a lot of games.

So a lot of established people are resistant to change (and the time it takes to learn it). If good players like Blackmoor and darkwynn were to switch to steleks point of view I would bet they would do even better than they are now.

Finally: The internet community is not the community as a whole. How many local RTT's get unreported? pretty much all of them. So you never see the local scene where people using steleks 'best of' lists continually tear up these tournaments. 5-6 big (moderately random) tournaments a year does not prove peoples opinion one way or another.

Is there a copyright rule for these lists? Can someone please tell me what they are. Give me a core summary of them or something. I don't know why they don't win unless I know what they are.

I don't know, Twin Lash Princes, Biker Nobz, Eldar Falcon Spam may have got a bit nerfed by 5e, Podding Marines were the rage a couple of years ago but people seemed to learn to deal with it.

Something seemingly awesome will come out of the Space Wolves codex pretty soon.

I tend to agree with the idea that good players are good because they play a lot and learn not just tricks but also how to Use Tactics.

I don't understand the logic that players who don't use the Internet d/l Stelek's lists and use them to win lots of tournaments we haven't heard of.

I thought Lash is hurt by psychic hoods and/or mech. I thought Nob Bikerz were ruined by TH/SS Termies and Dreadnoughts. I thought Falcons spam went bye-bye with 5E rules for moving/shooting and no more autoglancing. I still don't know what these lists are and if we are to beleive that we would be better players to use them I would like to know what they are first.

Eidolon wrote:It starts in the early spring.

Those are some saggy saggy boobs for a girl that young and that skinny. I guess god loves the irish the same way he loves the platypus, he doesnt care about appearance.

troll is obvious troll.

My theory is that it's due to people looking at the "hardest" lists, and optimizing their lists to beat out specifically whatever they see the most in those lists. If you know you're facing Eldar, you expect a jetbike farseer, Eldrad (maybe seer council, depending), and/or fire dragons in transports. If you're playing against SM, you know to expect any of about three primary types of power lists (with slight variations). If you're playing against Daemons, you expect a lash army. If you're playing against someone who is doing something strange though, like running footslogging IG with zero tanks ( or playing Dark Eldar ). It's like the 4 move checkmate. It's devastating to everyone who's never played more than 5 games of chess, but everyone else knows when someone's opening with it, and then simply cuts it short.

Timmah wrote:A couple things




So a lot of established people are resistant to change (and the time it takes to learn it). If good players like Blackmoor and darkwynn were to switch to steleks point of view I would bet they would do even better than they are now.

I am pretty sure Blackmoor and I would never listen to people like Stelek esp on his point of view. If anything just for how much emotion he adds into his post and how abrasive he is. The information he feeds and the content he sends out is lost in the noise that comes out of his post.

That and besides I disagree with a lot of his post and his point of view on things. He thinks too much in black and white and doesn't take count for a lot of different scenarios in the game that over the years and experience that we have come to encounter. Alot of the stuff we tried a year or two ago as I remember Green Blow playing against Mech with me and Allan with his Eldar that isn't his previous list but iwth much more mech.

we have played with them and they don't work once you put models on the board in a lot of the cases.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't know, Twin Lash Princes, Biker Nobz, Eldar Falcon Spam may have got a bit nerfed by 5e, Podding Marines were the rage a couple of years ago but people seemed to learn to deal with it.

All those did indeed get nerfed by 5th. I think there are a couple core tenets to doing well in 5th that people should follow when building their lists, and after that just play what they're comfortable with

Something seemingly awesome will come out of the Space Wolves codex pretty soon.

I disagree. In my opinion its just a middle of the road Codex. A good general will be able to do well with it due to its flexibility, but there is a big learning curve with them and I don't find it very forgiving.

I tend to agree with the idea that good players are good because they play a lot and learn not just tricks but also how to Use Tactics.

Agreed. A good general can take a less than optimal list and work wonders with it. This was seen both at 'ArdBoyz, BoLScon and at the WWS. Knowing your list and how to play it much more important than taking the latest and greatest beatstick army with very little testing

I don't understand the logic that players who don't use the Internet d/l Stelek's lists and use them to win lots of tournaments we haven't heard of.

Because some of Stelek's "best-of" lists aren't the best. His Chaos army, for instance, is a good example of less-than-optimal list building. While I find most of what he says sound, sometimes he is just way off base and combined with his *ahem* way of not sugarcoating anything, people tend to get very very angry instead of seeing what he is actually trying to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:

Timmah wrote:A couple things




So a lot of established people are resistant to change (and the time it takes to learn it). If good players like Blackmoor and darkwynn were to switch to steleks point of view I would bet they would do even better than they are now.

I am pretty sure Blackmoor and I would never listen to people like Stelek esp on his point of view. If anything just for how much emotion he adds into his post and how abrasive he is. The information he feeds and the content he sends out is lost in the noise that comes out of his post.

So you're willing to completely write off a point of view (which in this case is mostly correct) just because you don't like how its packaged?

Sorry dude, you won a tournament with an OK at best list. Grats on you for that, but your opinion does not become > someone else's just because you can be a little bit nicer about it.

Chuck Norris >> Allan

Chuck Norris >> Stelek

Overall I agree with GBF and deadshane that in the end it comes down to two things, luck of the draw, and experience. The last tournament I went to, there were 4 nob biker lists out of 15 total players (small local tourny) and because 3 of the biker players had commonly played against each other, they were only experienced at playing each other, and I had the pleasure of facing all three of the friends at the tourny. I played Tau, and though I had a minor loss with the first game, I stomped the second and third games because they were acting like playing against their own lists, and once the supposed unstoppable unit they had was gone, they were no longer capable of functioning...

Im taking my Tau to Mechanicon, and I believe I will do fairly well, not because Tau are top tier, nor that I have a hard list, just because I am comfortable with how it functions and Im experienced with using it. But in the end, the dice may just not go my way and that as they say, will be that...

Bunker wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:


I am pretty sure Blackmoor and I would never listen to people like Stelek esp on his point of view. If anything just for how much emotion he adds into his post and how abrasive he is. The information he feeds and the content he sends out is lost in the noise that comes out of his post.

So you're willing to completely write off a point of view (which in this case is mostly correct) just because you don't like how its packaged?

Sorry dude, you won a tournament with an OK at best list. Grats on you for that, but your opinion does not become > someone else's just because you can be a little bit nicer about it.

Um bunker did you read the part below that or you just want to take things out of context?

Darkwynn wrote:

Timmah wrote:A couple things




So a lot of established people are resistant to change (and the time it takes to learn it). If good players like Blackmoor and darkwynn were to switch to steleks point of view I would bet they would do even better than they are now.

I am pretty sure Blackmoor and I would never listen to people like Stelek esp on his point of view. If anything just for how much emotion he adds into his post and how abrasive he is. The information he feeds and the content he sends out is lost in the noise that comes out of his post.

That and besides I disagree with a lot of his post and his point of view on things. He thinks too much in black and white and doesn't take count for a lot of different scenarios in the game that over the years and experience that we have come to encounter. Alot of the stuff we tried a year or two ago as I remember Green Blow playing against Mech with me and Allan with his Eldar that isn't his previous list but iwth much more mech.

we have played with them and they don't work once you put models on the board in a lot of the cases.

Thanks for proving point number 2.

You act like another party hasn't ever played the game and that only you can be right. I'm not saying stelek doesn't do this also, but its like your trying to deny/justify that you do it.

Other truly competitive gaming circles do not function like this. They collaborate on building better competition. 40k players tend to be like, my way is right and if you disagree your a uneducated jerk.

Why Timmah? Because, I feel like listen to the view we go backwards? We have already tried list like that before and they don't work for us and I bet in the majority they don't work for a lot of people.

What point are you making that we are bullheaded even though we have already tried it out and it doesn't work for us? It would be like you telling me to turn in my Audi for that Ford Focus because it drives better... How well do you think I am going to listen to that?

Green Blow Fly wrote:The army that won BoLScon did not place at the Big Waaagh. The IG army that won Ard Boys got to go first every game and had great matchups. Judging from your batreps Allan it came across as you did not play the caliber of player you would typically see at a GW GT or say Adepticon. Also maybe the east is in general stronger than the west?
G

I do not think you can compare East Coast/West Coast because the guy who won BolsCon did not do as well at the Big Waagh. There are a lot of factors like matchups, and if he faced top players, etc.

Here are my GT scores for the last couple of years:
2007 GTs playing Eldar
Las Vegas GT 4-0-1 83 Battle Points
Baltimore GT 5-0 97 Battle Points

2008 GT Playing Witchhunters
Las Vegas GT 2-2-1 68 Battle Points
Baltimore GT 4-1 78 Battle Points

I did much better in Baltimore each year, but I would not say it was because of the level of play.

Timmah wrote:

#2
When people become good players in this hobby, they seem to become very very bullheading. Claiming their way is right and no other persons opinion matters. So a lot of people going to Stelek for advice are new players who want to up their game. This game is very challenging to get good at. A simple good list isn't going to hold your hand and get you massacres. You needs months of playing to become even passably good. And thanks to the nature of our game (time to play it) its difficult to get in a lot of games.

So a lot of established people are resistant to change (and the time it takes to learn it). If good players like Blackmoor and darkwynn were to switch to steleks point of view I would bet they would do even better than they are now.

Do you know what my theory is? That people who depend on the hardest lists to win are new players who are often a little deficient in the skill arena and they use those lists to make up for their short comings. So what happens is that they win by over powering their local opponents and they don't learn good fundamental tactics so when they get to large tournaments they end up getting out-played by people who are better players.

But I do think you are wrong with thinking that having a good player playing one of those lists would do even better. I think we all have strengths and weaknesses in our play styles, and we need to play an army that works well with them. For me it is a shooting army and I do poorly with an assault army. On the other hand, I play team tournaments games with Bill K. and he is very aggressive, and he loves assault armies.
To give you an example, Bill plays his Demonhunter army as an assault army, and I like to sit back with psycannons and shoot. We do well with each style that we like, but if we switched armies, I have a feeling that we would both not do as well. So I guess what I am saying is that if you put a random good list in even a good players hands, they would not do as well as one that they have crafted around their play style.

I still don't know what any of these 'hard' lists are. I am at a lose. I feel like a blind man at an orgy; I just feel my way around.


Maybe we don't know what the uber-lists are. Maybe we all assume we know what they are not and tell each other you don't jhave an uber list. I ask to see an uber list and no one knows any. There isn't a way to pair 40k army lists down to 3-4 uber lists. There are all sorts of good lists than any given Sunday can beat the other player. If you are on your game, you will do well and if you are sick you will struggle with the basics. (See Somnicide in WWS)