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Albatross wrote:Given that the Poppy Appeal is supporting the families of troops killed and wounded in Iraq and Afganistan - I'll give you 3 guesses as to who they're worried about offending...

Here's a clue - it's the same people who don't mind offending the rest of us with their 'Butchers of Basra' placards and their hysterical reaction to a few cartoons of a certain prophet.

QFT

How could anybody be offended is beyond me but hey.

It saddens me somehow though, that I live in Flanders and never in my life have heard of this tradition. I have seen the fields, not a lot of poppy's to be found.

We should just start to do the same here in Belgium, to help those around the world even who served their country and remember those who have fallen.

A little bit of unimportant info: a poppy in Flemish is a "klaproos".

Disgusting. It amazes me that anyone can find it offensive, but yes, i agree with albatross. Its the same bunch who think its alright to make banners with "Freedom go to hell" (actually seen that last week!) and "Behead those that insult -----"

I agree with freedom of speech, for everyone. And that includes fanatics. I dont think you should be able to stop people saying ANYTHING because if what you have said is demonstrably crass and stupid, then i shall be free to refute it.

The point is, its for EVERYONE. Where are all these people who crow on and on about "I might not agree with what you say, but i shall defend your right to say it"

I think they might be telling lies...

Initially, Bodycare's parent company GR and MM Blackledge said the ban would remain in place for its 1,600 staff.
'Employees are only allowed to wear their uniform, and charitable pins would not be considered part of the uniform and they would not be allowed to wear them,' a spokesman said.
'They are just required to wear their uniform - no excessive jewellery, pins and brooches. It is not part of the uniform. It's a standard across the board.'
But tonight the company caved in to pressure, saying it was going to make poppies an exception.

Managing director and co-owner Graham Blackledge said the blanket ban on symbols expressing personal beliefs had been brought in to avoid discrimination.

'We employ staff from many religious and political backgrounds, and our policy is in place to ensure that no offence is caused to other members of staff or our customers,' he said.

'Our understanding has always been that, for this policy to be valid, it has to apply to all badges or emblems, including poppies.'

But he said that after talks with local Labour MP Lindsay Hoyle, they now accepted that a mark of remembrance was a special case.

'Having received that assurance, we are happy to change our policy and allow our members of staff to continue wearing their poppies,' he said.

Mr Blackledge apologised if anyone had been offended by the ban.

Bodycare - which also includes the Grahams toiletries chain - defended the ban, saying it covered all charity symbols including coloured wristbands.

Personnaly I think the Comapny does have the right to say what an employee wears to work.
That includes religious symbols and even charitible symbols.

But that doesn't make them any less of an arse for actually excercising their right.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Personnaly I think the Comapny does have the right to say what an employee wears to work.
That includes religious symbols and even charitible symbols.

But that doesn't make them any less of an arse for actually excercising their right.

Agreed.

Court wrote:In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.

- John McCrae

[quote The poppy is about remembering ALL soldiers who died, not just those who died on one side or the other. EVERYBODY should respect this in SOME way. gah.

Companies have the right to dictate employee dress in countries with strong private property protections.

What I find interesting from a higher level is the relative lack of acknowledgment of the sacrifice our current wars demand. In the US we had a long standing policy of not showing coffins of returning servicemen. Now I read about this in England. I personally think it is an insult to the soldiers to not show the country the true cost of war whether it is a symbol like the poppy or footage of combat and its aftermath.

Some will say such things will be exploited, but not showing the costs of war to those who did not fight is its own method of exploitation.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Companies have the right to dictate employee dress in countries with strong private property protections.

This is true.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:
What I find interesting from a higher level is the relative lack of acknowledgment of the sacrifice our current wars demand. In the US we had a long standing policy of not showing coffins of returning servicemen. Now I read about this in England. I personally think it is an insult to the soldiers to not show the country the true cost of war whether it is a symbol like the poppy or footage of combat and its aftermath.

Obama reversed that policy and has been greeting (if that's the right word) the returning coffins of servicemen.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:
Some will say such things will be exploited, but not showing the costs of war to those who did not fight is its own method of exploitation.

The truth shall make you free.

BBC news has announced that Bodycare and their parent company have made an exception for Remembrance Day poppies, while keeping their general ban on charity and religious emblems.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Dal'yth Dude wrote:
What I find interesting from a higher level is the relative lack of acknowledgment of the sacrifice our current wars demand. In the US we had a long standing policy of not showing coffins of returning servicemen. Now I read about this in England. I personally think it is an insult to the soldiers to not show the country the true cost of war whether it is a symbol like the poppy or footage of combat and its aftermath.

Obama reversed that policy and has been greeting (if that's the right word) the returning coffins of servicemen.

Just one. The rest wouldn't give permission for cameras so he wouldn't show up.

That's an interesting take, not what we were told or saw

Mr Obama, under intense political pressure to make a decision on his future strategy on the war, offered prayers over each of the casualties before they were returned to US soil at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.

On a cold and blustery night, the President marched briskly up a ramp on to the Air Force C-17 transport aircraft which had carried home the latest victims of an increasingly bloody and unpopular war.

Inside the cavernous plane, he privately paid tribute to each of the eight Army soldiers killed by a roadside bomb and to the seven servicemen and three Drug Enforcement Administration agents who died in a helicopter crash this week.

Mr Obama landed in Marine One, the presidential helicopter, before privately meeting the families of many of the casualties in a chapel near the airfield.

Seeing as the publicity decision is entirely down to the deceaseds families, then I don't see what else he was suposed to do.

I think you can read it different ways.

Certainly there was a policy under the previous administration of not releasing photos of returning coffins. There was quite an incident when some camerawoman released some and she got the sack because of it.

Obama clearly has reversed that policy. And apparently he hasn't gone to other coffin repatriation flights.

That can be read as taking cynical advantage of a photo opportunity, or you can read it that he made a clear public statement about the reversal of policy, and as president he doesn't have time to greet all repatriation flights.

I understand the coffin policy has been rescinded which is why I used the past tense.

I also know some people will claim Obama's visit to Dover is a cheap political opportunity. Frankly, I wouldn't have gone with any cameras present, but I do believe it was an honest gesture from somebody who has not served in the military.

People do need to know the cost of wars whether it is financial, political, or in death. With a professional military, a media that is fickle on war coverage, and some other factors, that message just doesn't get out as much IMO.

Sorry of this has drifted too far off topic. It is a topic I'd like to discuss, but just never seem to have the opportunity in polite company.

Obama was damned no matter what he did.

Did he go?

1. Yes - He's an opportunist exploiting the soldiers
2. No - He hates our soldiers, doesn't support them, etc etc

Were there cameras?

1. Yes - He's an opportunist exploiting the soldiers
2. No - He didn't really go. Why is he being secretive? Is he ashamed to be seen with our soldiers?

Ahtman wrote:Obama was damned no matter what he did.

Did he go?

1. Yes - He's an opportunist exploiting the soldiers
2. No - He hates our soldiers, doesn't support them, etc etc

Were there cameras?

1. Yes - He's an opportunist exploiting the soldiers
2. No - He didn't really go. Why is he being secretive? Is he ashamed to be seen with our soldiers?

He's talking sense again..best ban him ASAP.

yea we don't cotton to that sort round these parts...

@reds8n: Ah, now THAT's interesting.

I understand entirely the companies desire to ban ALL forms of badges. While to some it seems a bit OTT, in all truth they are just trying to avoid any possibility of a lawsuit.

Now that they have been granted a 'special case' for poppies, the company has relaxed the ban. So now everbody is happy. >_< Be HAPPY!

I was sure we'd already broken this one ?

The files are in error !

Frazzled wrote:Canada and UK'rs wear these little flowers in memory of veterans and WWI (WWI was where it started). Same reason we have veteran's Day.

We also have them down here in New Zealand, and the Aussies do too. Although we do our remembrance on ANZAC day 25th of april, more so than on the 11th of the 11th for some reason.

I wouldn't say I'm angry about their stance, it is their policy after all, but it does make me a wee bit sad as I feel you need to remember the sacrifice fallen soldiers have given for their country. It's good to see them changeeing thier minds about wearing them.

On a less serious note, how cool is the name ANZAC? (when compared to the BEF)

It's cool - British Expeditionary Force seems a bit like they were going for a day out.
I bought some ANZAC biscuits once. They were nice.

I'd say that such a ban shouldbe a bit more discriminative actually. Or are people too damn lazy to read nowadays?

I am always shocked and apalled when I read about stuff like this. Simple, quite innocent or benevolent and meaningfull things that rubs a small but vocal minority the wrong way completely unexpected.

Sometimes, a person comes up with an idea for something nice and good.
Then, there is an other person, who knows a very obscure meaning of the idea that is not so nice, which the inventor could not have been aware of...

... Lawsuit

Some lawyers are just there for the money?

I choose not to wear a poppy; I have no problem giving money to a charity supporting veterans however.

My problem with wearing the poppy is that I find there's a big difference between veterans of ww1 and ww2 and veterans of let's just say "the other wars". Namely the "newer" wars seem to have feth all to do with defending my country's sovereignty or my personal freedom.

I've never been a fan of symbolism in general and the poppy here in Canada seems to always get muddled in with the other conflicts that we've taken part in. I'm not saying our soldiers haven't done anything good for humanity post WW2, we've got some of the most professional soldiers in the world and they certainly have helped local populations in the Balkans and in the Middle East.

I’m sure plenty of our soldiers in Afghanistan truly believe they’re fighting to protect Canada. I’ve found the more balanced ones understand they’re fighting to protect Afghans from subjugation and possible murder by extremists. All veterans we are told are responsible for the freedoms we all enjoy, I think more accurately some veterans are responsible for the freedoms we enjoy, there are fewer and fewer every year.

By forcing a business to bend to the will of the “prove your patriotism in pin form” people, you take away the freedom of the business owners to decide how they want to run their business. I’ve had the opposite occur to me, I was forced to wear a poppy by management while working as a salesman. I had the freedom to quit or wear a poppy; I took the simpler option and wore the poppy during business hours. I didn’t like being forced to wear it but at least the irony of being forced to wear a poppy wasn’t lost on me.

In any case, people tend to get irrationally emotional when it comes to symbols; perhaps this business wanted a zero tolerance policy and wanted their employees to not deviate from their uniforms or dress code. I think that’s perfectly understandable, if you allow one thing you open the door to everyone expressing their beliefs and what social causes they support (breast cancer, free Tibet, various religious views and so on…).

Albatross wrote:It's cool - British Expeditionary Force seems a bit like they were going for a day out.
I bought some ANZAC biscuits once. They were nice.

Of course they were, just a quick jaunt across the channel to help the Froggies bosh some Krauts. Then it's back in time for Tea and Crumpets and Cricket at Lords I say!

Tally-ho!

Crablezworth wrote:I choose not to wear a poppy; I have no problem giving money to a charity supporting veterans however.

...

In any case, people tend to get irrationally emotional when it comes to symbols; perhaps this business wanted a zero tolerance policy and wanted their employees to not deviate from their uniforms or dress code. I think that’s perfectly understandable, if you allow one thing you open the door to everyone expressing their beliefs and what social causes they support (breast cancer, free Tibet, various religious views and so on…).

I understand where you are coming from here but it could be argued that it is not the fault of the fighting man that they are in a war which isn't popular. It is the politicians that should receive our ire while the soldiers/sailors/airmen should get our support. This is the common feeling in the United Kingdom at the moment; f**k the government but support our troops. The additional twist is that New Labour couldn't give a toss about the military so someone has to support them. But forgive me for my bias as I come from a military family.

Back to the topic at hand, if my employer told me I couldn't wear it I would've kicked up such a fuss it would've been unbelievable. But, luckily, the library where I work actually sold Poppies and I had the honour to help sell some. I haven't bought a poppy in years, I just reuse the same one year in and year out but still donate. I was in Morrison's the other day where I put x amount (won't say how much) into the pot and the woman at the desk gave me the filthiest look I've ever received in my life! I wasn't expecting gratitude but flippin' christ in a canoe!!

Also, what has annoyed me is that wearing the poppy has become a sort of status symbol. People start wearing them at the beginning of October simply to get on their high horse and say "look at me, I support a charity and this is my way of showing that I'm really a nice person." They're all over the bloody television! Tossers are making a mockery of this state implemented tradition!

/rant over

“I understand where you are coming from here but it could be argued that it is not the fault of the fighting man that they are in a war which isn't popular.”

Sure but in the case of Afghanistan, Canadian soldiers aren’t forced to go there. To those soldiers that come back and say “hey I was over there defending your freedom” my general reply is “I have a rock that keeps terrorists away, prove me wrong”.

“It is the politicians that should receive our ire while the soldiers/sailors/airmen should get our support.”

Well soldiers sailors and airmen are paid to serve. Here in Canada people wear red on Friday to support the troops… I always thought sending care packages to those oversees or donating to the legion or something more substantial would make more sense than a weekly symbolic act.



“Also, what has annoyed me is that wearing the poppy has become a sort of status symbol. People start wearing them at the beginning of October simply to get on their high horse and say "look at me, I support a charity and this is my way of showing that I'm really a nice person." They're all over the bloody television! Tossers are making a mockery of this state implemented tradition!

That’s my problem with wearing the poppy, and most symbolic stuff, it’s this sort of “look at me, I’m a good person, I donated money to something” like you said. It’s become this litmus test for older folks and conservatives as to whether I’m a good patriotic person. I have a freaking mowawk for christ sake no amount of patriotic symbols will help me in their eyes anyway.

Crablezworth wrote:Sure but in the case of Afghanistan, Canadian soldiers aren’t forced to go there.

Last I checked, no Soldier in the US, UK or Canadian Army is "Forced" to go anywhere, as it is a all volunteer force. However, if you are a soldier, and are ordered to go to place XYZ, that is the Commander in chiefs choice, not yours.

As it stands now you have to apply to go to Afghanistan. We have a fairly small amount of boots on the ground compared to the Americans. We needed to borrow some larger transport planes just to get our leopard 2s over there.

In any case, it's a voluntary deployment.

SilverMK2 wrote:Traditionally they are red, though I have heard that there are white ones as well, to show your respect for the individuals who have sacrificed so much, but not for war itself.

White poppies are a symbol of anti-war, whilst still respecting the millions of dead to help you keep that opinion.

There's a few people who've implied the Bodycare policy was all the result of Muslim pressure. There were no complaints raised by any muslims. This was the result of a silly corporate policy being invented by company lawyers.

If you've ever met a corporate lawyer you'd understand that no political pressure is needed for them to create an unnecessary policy.