Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think that it makes sense that any model in the unit can make DOG, even though not written as such, if you have the only weapon that can hurt the tank it's not going to matter how close you are, your still going to shoot, or hit it.

Tri wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

Grimgob wrote:Remember attacks in a DoG move are resolved at front AV. So a Nob doing a DoG against a Russ,BW, or LR has to roll a 5 to at least glance it (not good odds).

8 + 5 = 14?

He's forgetting they're not charging so no Furious charge... So as you said its 6's to glance

I forgot (facepalm) even worse odds thanks for catching that Gorka and thanks for the clairification Tri.

despoiler52 wrote:I think that it makes sense that any model in the unit can make DOG, even though not written as such, if you have the only weapon that can hurt the tank it's not going to matter how close you are, your still going to shoot, or hit it.

The advantage in your case goes to the defender. Tank Shock, IMHO, is intended to be a beneficial offensive maneuver.
To support this, I give you exhibit A: opening paragraph for tank shock
"...use their mass as a weapon,... often throws the opposing battle line into disarray,..."

Death or Glory is itself an attack. It has similarities with all other types of attacks within the game. One similarity it has is the precondition that the attacking model is in correct position to attack. Shooting has the requirement that the model have line of sight to the target. Close combat requires base to base contact or be within 2" of a friendly model within base to base contact. Death or Glory requires the model would have moved out of the way if it chose not to do a Death or Glory.
To support this, I give you exhibit B: Death or Glory! paragraph line 1
"...., one of its models in the vehicle's path can stand and attempt to destroy it rather than move out of the way."

A unit that passes their morale check "...simply let the tank move through, as if it was not there." This means that each model's position before and after the tank passes through remain the same. IMHO I believe they did not include the stage of "moving models out of the way, move tank through opening, and then reposition the models to their original positions" as both a time saver and as a way to make use out of the abstract nature of the game. But what can be inferred from this is that only models in the vehicle path would move had the action been tediously worked out.

My take on this is that the defenders would see the tank comming, tanks arn't really inconspicuous. "Oh no, a 300 tonne beast is clanking towards me, I did not see this comming"

I agree with the OP 100% on this situation. I don't even know why I lot of people rule it this way. Why can't we all argue about a bigger issue, with OP-ed 'dexes.

despoiler52 wrote:My take on this is that the defenders would see the tank comming, tanks arn't really inconspicuous. "Oh no, a 300 tonne beast is clanking towards me, I did not see this comming"

Ok. So what does that mean, ruleswise?

Not that it means anything, but going towards a possible rai intent (and i dont like rai, im a raw guy loll.

but i found my old 3rd ed rulebook at my mothers house while i was visiting for thanksgiving, blast form the past really lol, but under the tank shock heading it says

"pg 88 under death or glory
"If a unit passes it's morale check against tank shock, any troopers from the unit can stand in the path of the vehicle ..."

like i said its old and they might have changed, so take it with a grain of salt, but id hate some dude clipping my boyz mobs ... lol...

kill dem stunties wrote:Not that it means anything, but going towards a possible rai intent (and i dont like rai, im a raw guy loll.

but i found my old 3rd ed rulebook at my mothers house while i was visiting for thanksgiving, blast form the past really lol, but under the tank shock heading it says

"pg 88 under death or glory
"If a unit passes it's morale check against tank shock, any troopers from the unit can stand in the path of the vehicle ..."

like i said its old and they might have changed, so take it with a grain of salt, but id hate some dude clipping my boyz mobs ... lol...

You can't look at rules that are two editions old as "RAI" because they wouldn't have released new rules if they intended the rules to never change.

hense the caveat at the end, but it would hardly be the first time gw mixed up their usage of unit and model is all i was sayin =/

If they managed to write those specific words to DoG 2 editions ago then it confirms my RAW thoughts. They wouldn't be so specific as to add models in vehicles path if they meant units.
The fact is this vehicle on the spur of the moment decides to plough straight into/through a squad. They have little time to react so it's a question of run away, jump out of it's way or stand your ground. The troop squad do know the massive vehicle is there and has probably had plenty of movement turns to prepare and place the fist/heavy weapon in the right place to deal with it. If they haven't and the shock hits troops then surely an auto hit from any guy from the infantry squad is unfairly powerful to the defender?

If you're going to demand that only models under the tank's final position can death or glory because it says "rather than move", then you might as well demand that you have to destroy the tank, not just stop it by other means because clearly it says "can stand and attempt to destroy it rather than move". Otherwise it would say "attempt to stop it".

The way I play it, it's a model in the vehicle's path, doesn't have to be a model that would have to move because the tank ends its movement on top of it, and that you only have to stop the vehicle.

You're free to play any way you want obviously, these rules are only guidelines anyway (says so in the rulebook).

Edit:
If you want it to be any model in the unit, even though he might be 14" away, consider the following, do you get to involve the same guy in a close combat if your unit is charged at the other end? Or do you do your pile in move and then check if your guy is close enough? If you're going to argue that your unit is ready for the tank shock, you could also argue that the unit is ready for a charge, and exchange one of the models being charged with your powerfist from 14" away.

The unit isn't ready for a tank shock, the opponent aims his tank at whatever he wants in your unit as to cause panic and force you to take a leadership test. Death and glory is just a bonus for when it's usable.

I'd like to see an INAT-style poll thread to see how many people play it one way or the other.

At my store the tank shocker turns the vehicle to his chosen direction, declares his distance and the vehicles 'path' is determined. The first squad hit check morale and any 'models in the path' that would have to move to allow the tank through can choose to DoG. If not then the vehicle continues to the next until Its max distanc where it is placed down and any troops in it's resting place are moved the minimum distance to clear room.
I was more trying to clarify what the rules are that GT and other such like tournaments use because I won't be wasting points allowing myself to tank shock with arm 10 if my opponent always gets to use fists or auto hits with str 8 weapons. Paying 10pts for an ability that is highly likely to destory your vehicle would be silly

Messiah2k02 wrote:At my store the tank shocker turns the vehicle to his chosen direction, declares his distance and the vehicles 'path' is determined. The first squad hit check morale and any 'models in the path' that would have to move to allow the tank through can choose to DoG. If not then the vehicle continues to the next until Its max distanc where it is placed down and any troops in it's resting place are moved the minimum distance to clear room.
I was more trying to clarify what the rules are that GT and other such like tournaments use because I won't be wasting points allowing myself to tank shock with arm 10 if my opponent always gets to use fists or auto hits with str 8 weapons. Paying 10pts for an ability that is highly likely to destory your vehicle would be silly

why? Off the top of my head i can't think of any tanks with front armour 10 but ...

against AV10 with extra armour a Str8 P.Fist would stop the tank 33.3% of the time.
against AV11 with extra armour a Str8 P.Fist would stop the tank 25% of the time.
against AV12 with extra armour a Str8 P.Fist would stop the tank 16.6% of the time.
against AV13 with extra armour a Str8 P.Fist would stop the tank 8.3% of the time.
against AV14 with extra armour a Str8 P.Fist would stop the tank 0% of the time.

against AV10 with extra armour a Str8 C.Fist would stop the tank 48.61% of the time.
against AV11 with extra armour a Str8 C.Fist would stop the tank 45.83% of the time.
against AV12 with extra armour a Str8 C.Fist would stop the tank 41.6% of the time.
against AV13 with extra armour a Str8 C.Fist would stop the tank 36.1% of the time.
against AV14 with extra armour a Str8 C.Fist would stop the tank 29.16% of the time.

against AV10 with extra armour a Str8 melta would stop the tank 64.8% of the time.
against AV11 with extra armour a Str8 melta would stop the tank 61.1% of the time.
against AV12 with extra armour a Str8 melta would stop the tank 55.5% of the time.
against AV13 with extra armour a Str8 melta would stop the tank 48.1% of the time.
against AV14 with extra armour a Str8 melta would stop the tank 38.8% of the time.

... now if i was up against a expensive tank then i might risk a model killing it with DoG, but a 50pts rhino or 100pts waveserpent? na i'll just let it pass.

edit for got about glancing (2.7%)... so yes you can kill AV14 with a power fist ... but boy you've got to be one lucky SoB

Not only are my raiders armour 10 they are also open topped, so it's even more likely than 33%. An usually I'll be tank shocking when they have already lost their only weapon (meaning weapon destoyed result = immobilised). That's the problem

The clue was "10pt upgrade" - Raiders with Torture Amps

And if you havea melta gun, so AP1 and open topped, stopping the tank happens on a 2+ on a pen, and a 4+ on a glance. Meaning you stop the tank (35/36*5/6)+(1/36*1/2) = 81.019% + 0.0138% of the time.


Edit: and yeah, if no weapons left then ANY pen from a melta destroys the Raider - 97.222% of the time

ah the raider... yes that would be a bad idea. Just out of interest do you get much mileage out of them when you tank charge?

Tri wrote:
against AV14 with extra armour a Str8 P.Fist would stop the tank 0% of the time.

I came up with 2.8%

Roll a 6 for penetration to get glancing, then a 6 to immobilize. (1/6)x(1/6)=0.02777

Also the odds get changed a bit when you're tank shocking with opentopped vehicles, as the damage result gets +1. Not to mention it's a bit iffy to stop ork trukks as they're ramshackle and may run you over even if you destroy it.

I'll always consider the consequences of not stopping a tank before deciding on DoG, if they're doing a last turn rush to contest an objective for example. If I have the chance to destroy the vehicle in that case, no matter how slim it is, I'll go for it.

The rather than move part. Locally, when we move a vehicle whatever distance chosen (12", 18" etc) we move the vehicle that distance along the table. We dont pick up the vehicle and teleport it to its new spot, so obviously as the vehicle moves along any models in the way have to be moved out of the way, then back in place as the vehicle moves on by.

While Im not claiming this is how GW intends movement to be made, it certainly seems to be one viable interpretation. And its one which makes the tank shock rules work rather well, since only models in the vehicles path are moved, and only those models can tank shock.

From a fluff point of view the problem with any model in the unit being able to DOG is that sometimes on large units the one model with a fist or claw is not anywhere near the tank shock path. If a large unit is attempting to hold two objectives its quite possible that model may be more than a foot away. Its hard to imagine that one model hoofing it across the board in time to do a dog when he may be two turns movement away. Fluff doesnt matter a bit to RAW of course, but if there is a raw interpretation that ties in with fluff its a plus.



Sliggoth

Tri wrote:ah the raider... yes that would be a bad idea. Just out of interest do you get much mileage out of them when you tank charge?

The tactic i have read about involves tank shocking your Wych Raider into normal squad members... a maximum of 12" landing the Raider on the squad to bunch the opponent together then jumping Wyches out with double Shredder and a Haemonculi with Destructor. Double S6 blasts and a flamer = toasty death should see the squad taking a 2nd morale check before if needbe charging the Wyches in for a little CC. Well worth it for 10pts

Johnno wrote:Not to mention it's a bit iffy to stop ork trukks as they're ramshackle and may run you over even if you destroy it.

Ramshackle's kareen stops if it would come within 1" of enemy models, just as an aside.

Gorkamorka wrote:
Ramshackle's kareen stops if it would come within 1" of enemy models, just as an aside.

Ah thanks! So I guess it's not so iffy then. Don't have an ork codex, nor have I ever played as them myself.