What is Ninja Tau?

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**Steelmage99**

Kroot Loops wrote:
And lets face it, even if Ninja Tau was winning tournaments left and right (it's not), I'd still pass. I like playing the game, and to me, sitting on one unit a turn and then trying to rush objectives in turn 5 is exceedingly boring.

But that isn't actually what is being suggested, now is it?

**Kroot Loops**

Steelmage99 wrote:
Kroot Loops wrote:
And lets face it, even if Ninja Tau was winning tournaments left and right (it's not), I'd still pass. I like playing the game, and to me, sitting on one unit a turn and then trying to rush objectives in turn 5 is exceedingly boring.

But that isn't actually what is being suggested, now is it?

Which part? Ninja Tau *is* sitting on one unit a turn coming in, and then trying to objective rush on turn 5.

**Flavius Infernus**

Kroot Loops wrote:

And Tank shocking in turn 4/5 is grasping at straws. competently played Tyranid and Ork units will be fearless, as will any chaos demon army. Chaos Marines and Space Marines are leadership 9/10, if not fearless from attached chaplains, and SW are leadership 8, but with four HQ choices, chances are they'll be leadership 9/10 as well. Good luck tank shocking any of those off, it can happen, but odds are enough out of your favor that it will be luck.

You don't need the victim of the tank shock to fall back in order to shove them off the objective. Even if they're fearless or pass their Ld test, they have to move aside for the tank. Tau tanks, like a lot of tanks in the game, are big enough to shove an infantry unit more than 3" away from an objective when they park on top of it.

You'd have to surround the objective with vehicles (not walkers) to prevent this kind of objective grab, or park your own vehicle on top of the objective, as is commonly done with drop pods for example, forcing your opponent to destroy your vehicle in order to be able to get close, except by ramming.

I have to say that, the more I learn about ninja Tau from this thread, the more interested I am in playing against a competent player with a good ninja Tau army. It sounds like a really intriguing challenge to beat.

**Anpu42**

Tank Shock+Marines+Melta-Bombs=

**rogueeyes**

EzeKK wrote:Ninja Tau works.... against people that either: 1. Don't have a clue what they are doing or 2. They have never played against NT or finally 3. Suck a fat one (army lists sucking a fat one included)

A Positional Relay is a helpful tool, but Ninja Tau is just outright the most non-sensical and outright annoying tactic I've seen in a while. Oh man I get to play with myself for 5 turns or so then you come in? Wow that sounds like a challange and fun! Ahem....

I am (surprise, surprise!) very biast against this tactic mainly because of my experience with it. I have never left a game against Ninja Tau feeling anything but annoyance and lack of respect for that player. I have won and lost and tied on all acounts, but even the wins seemed to easy, took almost no tactical thought, and left me thinking that I wasted my time.

If you want to play reserves play the Eldars, or hell, Imperial Guard w/ Valks or something.

Using PR for calling in ASS broadsides etc... is very good, but basing an army around it is just.... ugh....

The entire problem is there are people who leave the entire army in reserve - which in the majority of cases IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO PLAY IT. Why I say the majority of cases is because if you are facing a huge nob biker list all in reserves or a drop pod army all in reserves it is ideal to stay in reserve as well - neither army has fun. Also the Tau general HAS the option to not use the PosRelay and bring in his entire army as normal reserves instead of the typical one unit.

Most players of Ninja Tau do not know how to play it. This gives it a bad rep. It is similar to how Tau is mostly deemed a weaker army - because it takes a lot of skill to play with them. If you are not a good general you will get destroyed because you will use the units wrong. Tau are unforgiving to bad moves made by it's generals. Ninja Tau can be a gimmick - but if used correctly (which it often i not) then it turns into a game that really is not fun.

Correct Ninja Tau -
A few units in reserve to deepstrike or outflank (1 per turn starting on turn 2)
Hybrid army sits on the table sending firepower to whittle down the enemy.

If you played Chaos think of having almost guaranteed obliterators deepstriking on turn 2 behind enemy lines. If you play Guard imagine having a valkyrie outflanking on turn 2 on a roll of 2+. The PosRelay is a great tool in the Tau arsenal. There are builds based around it just like there are builds based around most other things. Basing a list around Lash?

**Kroot Loops**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
You don't need the victim of the tank shock to fall back in order to shove them off the objective. Even if they're fearless or pass their Ld test, they have to move aside for the tank. Tau tanks, like a lot of tanks in the game, are big enough to shove an infantry unit more than 3" away from an objective when they park on top of it.

Nope. A Devilfish would need to be 6" wide to force a well deployed infantry squad to be completely out of 3" range of an objective. I'll measure it when I get home, but I'm pretty sure it's not. It still doesn't solve your problem that devilfish can only come out of reserve from your board edge, unless it's a pathfinder DF, in which case it's not scoring. on a 4'x6' board, well deployed objectives will be 24"+ from your long edge, and more than 24" from the short edges, which means it's going to take any scoring unit you bring on at least two turns to reach them. Since my troops can be 3" away from the 24" objectves and still be contesting them, it will take *three* turns for you to be able to tank shock them. Which means you won't, because when your tank shock falters over 2" from the unit, you're staring down the barrel heavy weapons fire without the benefit of your disruption pods, followed up by assault if shooting fails, or even worse, chewing up your FW in assault if shooting was succesful.

**Flavius Infernus**

Anpu42 wrote:Tank Shock+Marines+Melta-Bombs=

That would be awesome, true, if marines could have meltabombs.

Unfortunately in every type of marine unit except vanguard vets, only the sergeant can have em. So assuming the sergeant is even eligible to make a death or glory attack (the tank has to run over him, and you have to assume your opponent will avoid doing that if possible) you're looking at a one-shot do-or-die weapon that's far from guaranteed to do anything. And even if you manage to immobilize or stun the vehicle (and save your sergeant), the undestroyed vehicle is still contesting. And if you fail, the sergeant is dead and the infantry has to move. So it's a pretty safe gamble for the tank-shocker.

**starbomber109**

Anpu42 wrote:Tank Shock+Marines+Melta-Bombs=

If the flachette discharger doesn't kill him first :3 Edit: Or the meltagunner, I think even the missile-launcher can make a DoG attack. Anyone can technically make the attack.

**rogueeyes**

starbomber109 wrote:
Anpu42 wrote:Tank Shock+Marines+Melta-Bombs=

If the flachette discharger doesn't kill him first :3 Edit: Or the meltagunner, I think even the missile-launcher can make a DoG attack. Anyone can technically make the attack.

You only get one auto-hit attack anyways. Plus someone trying to do this type of charge is not the smartest person. A better bet to contest an objective would be a piranha coming on from your board edge turbo-boosting 24" or deep strikers coming in then flaming with twin-linked flamers to knock out a unit on an objective. By this point in the game you hould already have cleared off and be making your way to objectives. Eldar do this - Tau do not claim objectives this way. They can only contest ones that they do not hold.

**Flavius Infernus**

Kroot Loops wrote: on a 4'x6' board, well deployed objectives will be 24"+ from your long edge, and more than 24" from the short edges, which means it's going to take any scoring unit you bring on at least two turns to reach them.

Maybe I'm not getting something, but isn't the Tau player allowed to place some of the objectives? He only needs one more than you to win, so isn't he going to place them as close as possible (just over 12") to the long table edges?

Also I'm drawing a diagram here and it looks to me like the area of a 4X6 board that is more than 24" from the opposite table edge and more than 24" from the short edges is a 2X2 square on your own side of the table. I can't figure out any way that more than 2 objectives, maximum, can be placed into this box and still be sure of following the restrictions on how close they are to table edges and each other (and I'm not really sure about the second one). So that means that, if you are in a game with only 3 objectives, which only happens when you roll a 1 on d3 in the standard version of the mission, *and* if you place the first and third objectives, you can get a maximum of 2 "well-placed" objectives. In every other scenario, at least half or more of the objectives on the board can't be in your 2' "well-placed" box regardless of who places them.

And this doesn't even address the fact that, if you're using the standard mission, you place objectives *before* you select deployment zones. So you won't even know which table edge is yours when you're placing them (although you know if the Tau player is playing ninja Tau, he's likely going to want to let you choose, that's true).

**Illumini**

Here is a topic discussing exactly the same thing: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/235230.page

I'll include some quotes for the lazy, answer to assumed vulnerabilites (commander dying, blocking DZ, only works until opponent is used to it etc)

Of course it has some weaknesses, the commander dying is one of them, this is not as critical for most lists as you would think, that only means you're playing in a more normal fasion. It is also not as easy as it seems to kill the commander, I've never lost him until he has done his job. Trukk-boyz are actually a pretty good counter, but then again, no-one said that your commander would never die. As I said, if it happens, you switch to a more mechanized warfare. Commanders can also be pretty damn hard, with 2+ save, shield drones and FnP (or even bodyguards if you go wild) You will probably also need 2x trukk-boyz to take the commander out, as he will be out of reach turn 1, and he or the other bait will kill AT LEAST 1 trukk, probably 2 (missile pod at BS4-5 and tl railgun)

As hulksmash said, blocking DZ is just silly, it is almost imposible to pull off, and wouldn't give you much, as most of the army deep-strikes or outflanks or is mounted. My only reserves that enter from the board edge are mounted FW's, can't stop them

Tau can't rely on out-shooting a lot of armies now, IG will smash a shooty Tau army, same with some marine-builds etc. Orks can weather the fire and assault the Tau to death etc. Tau are pretty weak when played normally. The point of this army, is that you hit the enemy at a few points, combining your fire on a couple units, knock him off the objective, take it, and if the game ends at turn 5, the enemy will have 0-1 turns to get the objectives back.

Tau can knock enemies off a few objectives, they just can't take them all, which is why this tactic doesn't work in a lot of tournaments. It relies too much on winning barely, by f.ex. having one more objective or a few more KP's

It is very good in a KP match, as the enemy only have maximum 2-3 turns to fire back after the Tau have knocked off some easy KP's, and more likely, 1-2. In the best conditions (Tau have second turn and game ends on turn 5), the enemy doesn't get to fight back at all

For the 1850 vs 200, 300 etc, well, you are facing a small army in the start. It will probably be composed off hard units in far-away places, away from objectives. If you send units after them, you will probably have to at least match their pts, probably more to kill them. (ex starting force at 1500: Commander + 2 drones, broadside + 2 drones, around 200pts) These units can take A LOT of fire with their 2+ saves, they will be in cover, they have shield-drones, command have FnP. They are vulnerable to assault, but both can knock out transports reliably. They will focus on taking out your mobility. Next turn, I send in my pathfinders on your flank, again away from an objective and away from your troops and unloading them in cover. You now have three targets to go for at totally different places, all of them are a threat that should be taken out. Next turn, I can drop in anything I need at that moment, where I need it, with a re-roll from the pathfinder fish. Still keeping troops spread out, probably away from objectives. This continues until turn 4 or 5, where I send in all forces to threaten/take as many objectives as I need. Your mobility will probably be crippled if you didn't go after any bait-units, and if you did, you will be all over the place, and mobility will still have suffered. You will struggle to mount a cohesive counter-attack, and your running out of time FAST.

As an example of the amount of mobility-killing such a list can pack: 1500pts, took out or immobilized 1x falcon, 2x prism and 3x serpent (still only a draw though - because of stupid placement of some suits, allowing Yriel to smash 5 suits alone )

I have played like this many times, and even after my opponents learn what I do, they still struggle to counter me. It is however a high risk strategy, and with some bad luck at the wrong time, your win is a draw. In standard missions, I have not lost, but I've had a fair share of draws because of some critical errors on my part or just bad luck. It is NOT a forgiving tactic - one mistake, and your playing for a draw.

Niinja Tau is one of the most interesting play styles I have tested, it demands so much more from you as a player, and much less as a list maker.

The biggest weakness is that they struggle to win by much, thereby making it ineffective in most tournament, where you will probably never get a massacre with this list.

**Kroot Loops**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Maybe I'm not getting something, but isn't the Tau player allowed to place some of the objectives? He only needs one more than you to win, so isn't he going to place them as close as possible (just over 12") to the long table edges?

Also I'm drawing a diagram here and it looks to me like the area of a 4X6 board that is more than 24" from the opposite table edge and more than 24" from the short edges is a 2X2 square on your own side of the table. I can't figure out any way that more than 2 objectives, maximum, can be placed into this box and still be sure of following the restrictions on how close they are to table edges and each other (and I'm not really sure about the second one). So that means that, if you are in a game with only 3 objectives, which only happens when you roll a 1 on d3 in the standard version of the mission, *and* if you place the first and third objectives, you can get a maximum of 2 "well-placed" objectives. In every other scenario, at least half or more of the objectives on the board can't be in your 2' "well-placed" box regardless of who places them.

And this doesn't even address the fact that, if you're using the standard mission, you place objectives *before* you select deployment zones. So you won't even know which table edge is yours when you're placing them (although you know if the Tau player is playing ninja Tau, he's likely going to want to let you choose, that's true).

In true ninja tau, not hybrid Tau with reserves, the tau player is going to give first turn to the opposing player in almost every circumstance. Objectives are placed after initiative, but before deployment begins, so the player going first already knows which edge they are claiming (they get to choose) and the player with initiative always places objectives first, and then go in turn. So in a 3 objective game, player one sets 2, player 2 sets one. In five objective, player 1 sets 3, player 2 sets 2. In 4 objective, each sets two.

As for the set up, I place the first objective 12.1" from my long edge, 6" left of dead center. then I place the second one 12.1" right of that one, still 12.1" from my table edge, if I have a third to set, set it in a triangle or L shape to the first two, 12.1" forward. This is more than 24" from the short edges, and 24 or more inches from your long board edge, while not being within 12" of another objective.

Since I can sit back 3" from the objective 24" (or 23.8"

) away from your table edge, it makes it physically impossible to tank shock them without three turns of movement.

Forming a ring around the back objectives without a large gap inside prevents pirahna from contesting, as they are not tanks and can not tank shock, and therefore can not move within 1" of your troops.

I'm not saying Ninja Tau can't work, there are some situations where it will be the best tactic. but against a solid player who is experienced against it? I'd say you're better off massing fire on them and manuvering than trying deepstrikes, flanks, and fifth turn alpha strikes that he is aware of, ready for, and playing to deny.

**Inigo Montoya**

Again kroot loops, you seem to assume that the ninja general has never seen this done before. If he is good, he has.

I do not need TROOPS to contest an objective! If I control 1 and contest the rest you lose! If you do your dandy little triangle I will not hold everything in reserve. Give me a break, do you think everyone but you is stupid? The ninja list is very adaptable, and when played properly, very hard to beat.

I wish I could play you a couple of games and let you see how it *REALLY* works. All of your theoryhammer and rhetoric can't help you when you are on the receiving end.

I am going to close here, earguing is silly and it is clear that the few of you know all there is to know about ninja tau and warhammer, and us guys that have been playing tau for years don't have a clue what we are talking about. Having played over 100 games in 5th alone with ninja tau means nothing. You couldn't possibly be wrong and apparently I couldn't possibly be right.

For those of you that don't subscribe to this unsubstantiated rhetoric, try them. It will take a while to get the hang of it, but man, once you do they are awesome.

**Flavius Infernus**

Kroot Loops wrote:

In true ninja tau, not hybrid Tau with reserves, the tau player is going to give first turn to the opposing player in almost every circumstance. Objectives are placed after initiative, but before deployment begins, so the player going first already knows which edge they are claiming (they get to choose) and the player with initiative always places objectives first, and then go in turn. So in a 3 objective game, player one sets 2, player 2 sets one. In five objective, player 1 sets 3, player 2 sets 2. In 4 objective, each sets two.

Uhh, no, sorry. That's just wrong.

Page 91 under "Seize ground," the first sentence says: "Before deciding deployment zones (see next section...) the players must determine the position of D3+2 objectives. The winner of a roll-off chooses a point on the table to be an objective."

I don't know where this "initiative" thing you're talking about comes from, but the objectives go down before you even know what type of deployment, and definitely before you know which table edge is yours and which is your opponent's. You place objectives, you roll off to see who places first, *then* determine what type of deployment, *then* roll for first turn. According to my rulebook, the process you describe is impossible in a seize ground mission.

In a capture and control, you get to place your one objective where you want. But so does your opponent.

**Kroot Loops**

So if someone sets up a board that is not favorable to ninja tau, you don't play ninja tau. got it. And I'm always up for a friendly game

Infernus, you are correct. It's a house rule at the flgs to speed up the steps to combine the roll-off with the initiative roll, and been doing it long enough to forget it's a house rule, so I do apologize. But the concept essentially remains the same if you lose the roll off. you can always place all of your objectives within 12" of the first objective the Tau player places, and then drive up and castle your army on them. I mean if your first reserve comes in at the bottom of turn 2, most armies will have traveled 24" before your first reserve comes on.

But yes, I do believe this argument has run it's course, it's unlikely either side will be swayed. Someone will say they almost, or never, lose with Ninja Tau, and others will say the opposite. Play whatever you enjoy the most.

**Phryxis**

I have played hundreds of games with them and as a general rule I win.

Sorry to be OT, but really?

I'm not sure if you're exaggerating, but that's a lot of games. At minimum "hundreds" would be 200.

I play on weekends. Due to having kids, a wife, etc. I typically get to play about one weekend in two, and for similar reasons, I never play more than one game. So, in a year, I think I'd be lucky to get in more than 25 games.

Are people really playing hundreds of games?

**Steelmage99**

Some people have way too much time to play.

Not said in a bad way or anything. I play way too much Pandemic.

**starbomber109**

But how much FUN do you have while playing Ninja Tau?

**rogueeyes**

Steelmage99 wrote:Some people have way too much time to play.

Not said in a bad way or anything. I play way too much Pandemic.

We typically play Race For the Galaxy almost every day at lunch. We play 40K about once every other week but sometimes I end up getting a game or two in each week. BTW Pandemic is a great game - The On The Brink Expansion is quite nice as well.

Back on topic:

Setting up a triangle of objectives makes it much easier to contest with deep striking suits, A squad of 3 suits can possibly be set up to be within 3 inches of 1 if not 2 objectives. Unless you fill the entire area with units which would mean that you would have to have a horde army most likely. A Piranha could work but most likely will not be the best choice in this circumstance - a deep striking suit (or even a nearby suit using up the JSJ to get into contesting range would be the best options. All you have to do is to be 15" from any of those objectives in order to get in range to contest.

**Inigo Montoya**

My son plays, I play, and a couple of my neighbors play. I get to play a minimum of 5 or 6 games a week, and on a marathon weekend (once a month, we take turns at each opthers houses and 6 or 7 friends come over) I can get 10 games in with no problem.

I think part of the reason that I can play them so well is that I have played so many games with them. Our group has a number of older, veteran players with multiple large armies each, and you get to play your builds against literally anything you want to see.

I feel fortunate to be in this situation, and I enjoy it. (Not so much with the wife, but that is another story...)

I have a good deal of fun playing ninja tau, and all of the guys I game with enjoy the challenge of trying to beat them.

On a side note - be part of this group makes tuning a list for local tournaments fun and easy. When you have the opportunity to get 20 or so games in against tier 1 builds run by excellent players, your list is truely optimized by the time you get to the tournament.

I will close with this:
Are ninja tau viable? Absolutely.
Are ninja tau hard to play. Absolutely.
Are ninja tau fun to play? Absolutely.
Are they fun to play against? Some here say no, my friends say yes, so it will depend on who you are playing.

As my friend Brian (the most analytical listbuilder and finest general I have ever met) said in relation to this thread: "Show me a tau list that can consistently win in an all comers environment that is NOT ninja. It is how you successfully play tau in 5th..."

**Timmah**

Phryxis wrote:
I have played hundreds of games with them and as a general rule I win.

Sorry to be OT, but really?

I'm not sure if you're exaggerating, but that's a lot of games. At minimum "hundreds" would be 200.

I play on weekends. Due to having kids, a wife, etc. I typically get to play about one weekend in two, and for similar reasons, I never play more than one game. So, in a year, I think I'd be lucky to get in more than 25 games.

Are people really playing hundreds of games?

Hehe. This reminds me when someone claimed they played like 500 practice games in 3 months and then defended themselves. Apparently their Mom bought them all their 40k stuff because they obviously don't have a job.

**Flavius Infernus**

Inigo Montoya wrote:

As my friend Brian (the most analytical listbuilder and finest general I have ever met) said in relation to this thread: "Show me a tau list that can consistently win in an all comers environment that is NOT ninja..."

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/09/my-tau-empire.html

1 Commander Shas'el Hard-wired Target Lock; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
3X3 Fireknife suits
2X10 Kroot +7 kroot hounds
1 unit of 6 FW
8 Pathfinders, devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod;
2X2 piranha, fusion blasters
2 Hammerheads, Railgun & SMS
2 Broadside suits, SMS & shield drones
2000 points

**rogueeyes**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:

As my friend Brian (the most analytical listbuilder and finest general I have ever met) said in relation to this thread: "Show me a tau list that can consistently win in an all comers environment that is NOT ninja..."

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/09/my-tau-empire.html

1 Commander Shas'el Hard-wired Target Lock; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
3X3 Fireknife suits
2X10 Kroot +7 kroot hounds
1 unit of 6 FW
8 Pathfinders, devilfish w/ Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod;
2X2 piranha, fusion blasters
2 Hammerheads, Railgun & SMS
2 Broadside suits, SMS & shield drones
2000 points

A good build but not the best build I would say. Different parts can be changed around here and there. I would take a second squad of broadsides rather than a second hammerhead tank. I often face a lot of armor and barely face hordes though. The Imperial Guard player I face uses vehicles rather than horde. Don't even get me started on the Mech Eldar list ...

**grankobot**

Inigo Montoya wrote:
As my friend Brian (the most analytical listbuilder and finest general I have ever met) said in relation to this thread: "Show me a tau list that can consistently win in an all comers environment that is NOT ninja. It is how you successfully play tau in 5th..."

It's how you successfully play a 4th edition tau army in 5th. If you're relying on a gimmicky tactic (easily defeated by 5 turns of free movement! holy crap, your friends are "veterans" but haven't figured that out?) then it's time to update your army. Do you find yourself ever uttering the phrase "fish of fury"? If so, it's time to move on. Those times are no more.

A good build but not the best build I would say. Different parts can be changed around here and there. I would take a second squad of broadsides rather than a second hammerhead tank. I often face a lot of armor and barely face hordes though. The Imperial Guard player I face uses vehicles rather than horde. Don't even get me started on the Mech Eldar list ...

Broadsides should only be "massed" at very high point values, like above 2k. The reason why is that the more points your opponent has, the more big guns he's got to point at your tanks. 6 lascannons will most likely take down a hammerhead, and will definitely not kill a whole squad of broadsides.

Broadsides are more expensive and less flexible though, which is why you take hammerheads at lower point values.

What other parts do you think could be changed around?

**rogueeyes**

grankobot wrote:
Broadsides should only be "massed" at very high point values, like above 2k. The reason why is that the more points your opponent has, the more big guns he's got to point at your tanks. 6 lascannons will most likely take down a hammerhead, and will definitely not kill a whole squad of broadsides.

Broadsides are more expensive and less flexible though, which is why you take hammerheads at lower point values.

What other parts do you think could be changed around?

It's not that I would take "massed" or spammed broadsides. I'm use to facing lots of armor. I also enjoy having a backup squad of broadsides and creating firing lanes that cross over the broad length. It's one tactic that I favor that can be beat but also takes a lot to destroy (aka multiple obliterators did it but only after they made multiple invulnerable saves but the mechanized rhinos were taken out).

I would state that hybrid is the best army for Tau. They have some amazing static parts and some great mobility. Being able to JSJ is the number one tactic that Tau generals need to learn to use effectively. Tau actually have Tactics. "Get into Assault as fast as possible" is not a tactic. Also, "Stay out of assault" is not a tactic. Kroot meatshields, using the PosRelay effectively, Crisis suit loadout, Stealth Marker Teams, Pathfinder teams, Piranhas with gun drone screeen, Jump Shoot Jump. All of these tactics must be used together in order to have an effective army for Tau. One unit cannot do it all. You must use all of the units together reinforcing one another. Space Marines can stand on their own unit for unit. Tau must work together towards the greater good - a victory.

Piranhas I'm just testing out now. I'm use to taking duplicate squads - 2 squads of pathfinders and 2 squads of broadsides. My hammerhead usually has an ion cannon on it for anti-MEq. A commander with AFP and MP adds flexibility and anti-GEq. Kroot sometimes work but usually get eaten up or ran off the board. They work as a sinkhole. I enjoy burst cannons with a target lock on hammer heads as well. A squad of deathrains and a squad of fireknives is my typical loadout for crisis suits. I've been runnning a stealth marker team but may change it out for more crisis suits soon. By no means am I an expert. I'm able to play competitively though and enjoy it at the same time.

I'm also a fan of the hobby portion and am not ultra competetive. I like trying out new builds. Soemtimes I've played with out the PosRelay and wish I've had it instead.

**grankobot**

rogueeyes wrote:

I would state that hybrid is the best army for Tau. They have some amazing static parts and some great mobility. Being able to JSJ is the number one tactic that Tau generals need to learn to use effectively. Tau actually have Tactics. "Get into Assault as fast as possible" is not a tactic. Also, "Stay out of assault" is not a tactic. Kroot meatshields, using the PosRelay effectively, Crisis suit loadout, Stealth Marker Teams, Pathfinder teams, Piranhas with gun drone screeen, Jump Shoot Jump. All of these tactics must be used together in order to have an effective army for Tau. One unit cannot do it all. You must use all of the units together reinforcing one another. Space Marines can stand on their own unit for unit. Tau must work together towards the greater good - a victory.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the above list, since it has all the necessary elements of a hybrid tau army without any of the inefficient junk that people like to throw in like stealth suits (yes really, ~40 pts per markerlight? screw that) or crisis teams with fusion blasters. It's about taking the most powerful units in the codex (plasma/missile suits, anything with a railgun) minimizing the crappy choices (there's a reason why there are only 6 fire warriors in there) and giving it all the support it needs (the kroot sure aren't there for killing stuff). Hence... best of.

Assault armies are strategic too, by the way. It's just less apparent since a bad player with a bad assaulty army beats a bad player with a bad shooty army. You'll figure that out after you play someone who actually knows what to do with any transports that live after delivering their cargo, or who realizes that switching off sarge's power fist to help ensure the combat sticks through your shooting phase is a good idea.

**Inigo Montoya**

Fish of fury is ineffective in 5th.
Again, ninja tau do not have to start everything in reserve - they are deployed in accordance with the opponents list, setup, ability, and the mission.

You put out what you need and bring in answers when they are needed. It is cunning strategery (gw word) that wins games.

The previous list is decent, but I don't see it winning nearly as many games as ninja.

My friends are indeed "veterans" and have a slew of trophies from tournaments past. They are outstanding players.

Move wherever you want for 5 turns? I think not. The command squad on the board pop anything that gets too close and through selective movement and manipulation of terrain secure the zone that is necessary to push through late game. Again, there are two generals and two armies. What you say you will do and what I allow you to do are two very different things.

**KingCracker**

Just to chime in a bit OT in my own thread, what the hell is fish of fury? Every troop in a devil fish or something?

**grankobot**

Perhaps we're not on the same page here.

What I define "ninja tau" as is an army that puts only a positional relay on the board and hides for 4-5 turns, then brings everything on (2+ or automatically) late game for either objective grabs or an alpha strike to rack up kill points.

You're describing an army that has a positional relay, but doesn't rely on it. The kind of thing you use to either keep a squishy squad off the board if you go second so that they aren't taken down in one turn? IE, a hammerhead or unit of broadsides vs an army that can put them down before they get a chance to act, like anything with a unit of drop pod sternguard or multimelta dread.

To me, the second seems more valid than the first, but I still don't see the value in either of them. I can't think of a situation where I'd want to keep a unit off the board to protect it when I could just guard it with a wall-o-kroot. Tau don't die to long range firepower - sup disruption pod, even the ridiculously shaped tanks get cover. What they do die to is close range fire like drop podded meltas, which you can block off with enough kroot bases and still get your shots off on turn one.

How would you use the positional relay? You've been giving the same answer for the whole thread but you haven't ever given any real examples. I'll give you some scenarios. Figure each one is pitched battle deployment. Show me what you'd do with the positional relay in your army going first, going second, and how you would deploy to counter these armies. I'll do my best to show you how you could counter these just as good or better without the relay.

Fast Daemons. Assume he's got his good wave and you'll have 2-4 heralds, several squads of fiends and a couple daemon princes in your face. How do you deploy to prevent this?

Battlewagon orks. 3 BW, trukks to taste, at least one big mek to give them cover.

IG air cavalry. Astropath to make outflanking work if he doesn't get turn 1, 4-6 valkyries and vendettas of various flavors, veterans with meltaguns and flamers, some form of artillery support.

Just to chime in a bit OT in my own thread, what the hell is fish of fury? Every troop in a devil fish or something?

Move up a devilfish with the SMS instead of drones, disembark fire warriors and open up. This worked pretty well in 4th because you could move 12" and pop off 7 str 5 shots from the devilfish and you could do it without exposing the FW squad (you could draw LoS through skimmers back then), so the FWs get to sit safe from assault behind their devilfish and anything that wants to shoot at them has to take a target priority test.

Now though, it just sucks. Don't do it. It also makes you sound like a tool if you say it out loud.

**KingCracker**

Ahh thanks for the answer lol.
That still sounds pretty decent, 7 shots, but Id agree on not trying to hide behind the tank. Gotta love getting shot in the foot eh?