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Dwarves: No casters so obviously CC rules. The anvil of doom is an option however, i havent got it but i may field it in larger point games, as long as i have another lord.

DE: Magic is obviouly dominant however i also have a dreadlord with an exicutioners axe. I switch between the lvl4 sorc and the dreadlord depending on what army im facing.

O&g: CC characters are much better here, IMO. However i make sure i have a shaman in there somewhere.

Minsc wrote:Reason why most people don't take magic weapons on wizards is that they are 1 Attack models, and if they cast something like Flame Sword or Bear's Anger then they lose their magic weapon's benefits (and usually said spell has better benefits than a magic weapon in the first place). A few armies have some weapons that work decently with a Wizard (for instance Skaven could do well with Death Globes on a Skyre Engineer), but for the most part you're looking at stuff like "My Wizard is S5 now!" or "My Wizard strikes first!", nothing that overcome their low weapon skill / attack number / strength.

Imagine how jealous I am to WoC Sorcerers now?

Another reasons is that certain lores suck (I.E. Brets) Or there is an easier way to generate magic defense.

I run a wizard lord in 3 of my armies (WoC, Lizardmen, Dark Elf). My Empire I run either Arch Lector or General. Orcs, I run a big boss

For WoC, they don't have a shooting phase per se, so they need something to pick off annoying units (Eagles, fast cav, skirmishers) and wizards fit the bill. I run 4 casters most of the time (My BSB has the book). The rest of the army fights well enough that they don't need the combat characters (And Chaos wizards are as good as other race's fighty heros )

One thing you might discount into the equation is, however, dragons. Some areas you never see dragons because there's a good chance you won't get a game if you field one.

Did anyone read Therion's posts? The only magic spam list that'll even stand a chance against a blitz list is the DoC Tzeentch flying circus, and that's because they are able to stay out of arc of sight, not because they are shooting doom magic.

The idea that we should weaken magic characters, because fighting characters aren't being played enough, is a cruel joke.

Look to the Lizard men for an example of a race with copious magic...that no one cares about. As long as the magic is just shooting in disguise the blitzer ignores it and wins on the charge. Only magic that affects the move phase matters (Undead spells mostly).

Dwarfs are an army where it's almost impossible to win, not just without a caster, but without the special character caster, especially against blitz lists. Most competitive dwarf lists are some variation on the Thorek gunline, because Thorek is the only real way we (I play dwarfs) have to mitigate our main disadvantage, which is always being slower than everybody at all times. So that's an example of what Luna is talking about. However, I agree with other posters that this isn't typical.

Depends on what army im going with.

If its TK's, then they rely heavily on magic, so i will have 3-4 casters, 1 of which being a lord.

Currently planning a mounted WoC army, and wont be taking a single caster in the army, since i need it to be fast and hard hitting.

I generally stick to the theme of an army and its play style.

Cheese Elemental wrote:you can't dispel a frenzied Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut slapping you in the face.

This made me lol hard. In fact, I think it's sig worthy .

LunaHound wrote:So far i have seen almost everyone character slots are given to casters.

I find this surprising-I don't run any casters in my Lizardmen list, and only one lvl 1 Bray shaman scroll caddy in my BOC.

I suppose I don't come up against many magic-heavy armies, but I'm still of the opinion a good 'Ard charge will solve any problem more than fancy pants wizadary.

Intresting .

Minsc wrote:Humorously, I don't use magic casters that much any more. My standard list involves a Combat-Lord, BSB, single-Shaman (using the Staff of Sorcery), and then a fourth combat character if I can fit it in. And I didn't even start taking BSB's until recently.

I tend to take fighting characters because - while not super kill monsters (Grimgor being an extremely obvious exception) - my units need their few kills for combat resolution. If your units can handle the enemy well enough (either by having a good save, or being wonderful can-openers / something like Swordmasters or Chosen), you can take a spellcaster because you aren't losing much. If you're using something like Clanrats or Goblins, you need that character to get through the enemy's anvils / hammers. Without them, the unit is doomed and all you're kidding yourself is how quickly.

Ogres work around this as - while lacking armor (4+ save usually being their best) and killing power (3 S4 attacks! ... at WS3 w/ a 40mm frontage / model) - their Butchers can make up for either of these flaws, and you can't lob a Bruiser into all units in a MSU.

Same here and maybe because I´m an O&O player as well. No need for nasty sparky magic stuff when you can smash your opponents face with a clubbering club. Oh and the Ork Heroes are just too good to not take them. They might not be the powerhorse a Chaos Lord can be but well, they´re somewhat tough and bring that little much of extra killing power you need.
Back in the days with my Imperium I tend to use a lot of casters because I had a solid line of defense and was rarely forced to charge. But with O&O you really want to charge asap and pull out as much killing power as possible. So why take casters? Same with my Khorne Daemons, no room for casters. Anyway, the Magic Whore Lists are somewhat UBAR and it´s a pita to play them without heavy magic defense. On the other hand there a ton of counters vs magicians except VS and Lizards so at the end of the day MW Lists are easier to play I´d say but not too strong - may on the edge but no, not too strong.

Magic spam is actually one of the first thing that weak players try to abuse. They then move on to trying to abuse shooting spam, finally they realize they need to nut up and learn how to out-manouvre their opponent to win.

Magic is far too volatile to count on as a game breaker.

LunaHound wrote:So far i have seen almost everyone character slots are given to casters.
With the exceptions of 1 slot given to BSB.

Should it be like this? Should the combat type of Lords and Heroes be stronger?
benefit from better gear customization? That would allow them to be worthy to field
in place of casters?

I mean how many of us can really care less about casters , and only felt we are forced to take them
to not be obliterated by magic . *Scroll caddy?

'Must take dispel scrolls' (or equivalent) is the only hard fast rule I see.

I dont really see this, though individuals do have their own personal rules which seem to follow them around from army to army. If someone has a minimum scroll caddy for orcs, he is likely to have a similar loadout for almost every other army, with exceptions for those that really need their magic such as undead. Its all about personal preference.

I am not immune to this trend, though in my case the rule is: 'Dont take a Lord if a Hero will do.' I do not find the extra cost of a Lord worthwhile for the stats bonus. I only take lords if I want the monster their ride or insist on certain items.

I have to agree with what Orlanth said. In my 6th ed Lizard armies you always have to consider that you might want more Saurus, Cavalry, Skinks or whatever instead of more points in characters. So say two Skink Priests to cast spells, a General, which the Skinks will need and a Jaguar Saurus/ BSB in there somewhere. But no need for lots of points when you can take a Great Weapon and Light Armour anyway.

You can even give a Great Weapon to your Carni lord he is only something I3 anyway. 50 to 150 points saved on magic items you just bought a couple more Cavalry guys and some more Scouts.

------
As far as magic is concerned you get a couple dice for free you may as well use 'em! Two level 2 Heros you just gave yourself 6 dice and there must be at least one magic item that is worth taking.

Magic is always taken in such quantities because of the general arms race mentality.

The other guy will have magic so you must have a couple of dispel scrolls.
Now, a single lvl1 with scrolls will never cast anything so he is essentially 150 pts for two scrolls. Not that efficient.
But if you bump him up to lvl2 and take another lvl2 with a bound item you can get a spell or two per turn.
But they aren't great spells. So one is shifted to the lord slot and upped to a lvl4.
So what to take for the other heroes? Well, since you already have a strong magic phase any more spells are pretty much guaranteed to go through 'wink wink' so why not a third magic hero?
The fourth hero? Well he usually ends up as a BSB or another wizard.
At this point if the enemy doesn't have 4+ DD and scrolls (minimum lord lvl caster with scrolls) he is going to get blown off the table by magic missiles.


As for affecting the game...
Well, therron said it. Magic is either a replacement for shooting or a strategy changing item.
Chaos, Deamons, vamps, and lizzards don't really have much or anything in the way of mid-long range shooting. They can use magic to supplement this to an extent. Vamps can further redesign the way the game plays with spammable vanhels or invocations. As these make up most of the newer armies they will make up most of the armies out there.

Add to this the fact that certain new spells such as bubbos can remove combat chars from inside units (was impossible before) and magic has gotten considerably stronger in the last few books. Before vampires magic wasn't the end all thing that it is now.

I am just disappointed that the one hero I really want to take, The Master Engineer, has to be pushed to the side for a wizard with scrolls. The whole feel of my Empire army is engineers, but in order to be competitive I have to take wizards and priests.

In fun games Iv put master engineers with both my cannons, and used such fun items as the pigeon bomb and the long rifle when not re-rolling one of my many misfires, and I have to struggle against the most basic of magic attacks. In competitive games, engineers are not even considered, because I need those slots for useful units.

And all that is because of the magic phase, one of the few things I despise about this game.

I hate to say it, but if you despise magic, then perhaps Warhammer Fantasy Battle is not the game for you. A historical game might suit you better.

I am a big fan of 'to each their own.' There's no point wasting time playing a game you're not having fun with.

at HE 2000 points my last 2 games have been Teclis, Korhil on Chariot, Dragon Mage.

Dragon Mage seems to be a good solid cross between both styles, but uses two slots and is a bit pricy.

Maybe it's something like,

"Well I have to take a lvl.1 wiz with 2 dispel scrolls anyway, and that's 3 power dice that're never going to be used because my opponent also has magic defense. But if I take a lvl.4 + lvl.2 + lvl.2 then I get full use out of all those 10 dice and maybe don't even need dispel scrolls."

Things like dragons and unkillable heroes make up for this magic arms race somewhat.

A previous poster stated "a Lord maybe kills 5 models in the combat" but what was left out was that if you just mowed down the front rank of a squad, it gets no attacks back (a big deal) and furthermore, when it breaks and runs away from how much damage done to it, your lord can have killed an entire 20-man squad of guys.

Caster lords are also often vulnerable to being killed. A group of harpies or a lord of a dragon could fly over and kill your wizard. A group of harpies isn't going to assassinate your chaos lord riding a dragon.

I feel it's KINDA balanced but the magic phase could use a big reworking. It's often Rock-Paper-Scissors.

A 100% combat army might defeat an army that spent hundreds of points on just anti-magic.
A 100% magic army might crush a 100% combat army.
An army with hundreds of points on just anti-magic stands a chance against a 100% magic army depending on situation.

Then there are some armies with specific things that vastly punish enemy magic. Ring of Hotek and Slaan w/ Becalming discipline can both lead to an army that spent too much of magic being murdered.

I usually take one scroll caddy with all the other characters being outfitted to just kill as much as possible. For WoC, the altar is great as it can turn regular pee-on champions into killing machines too.

For my meager Empire Army i play one wizard, because that is all I have painted

Bloodthirster, Archaon, Kholek Suneater...

Put those three and few others against some 2000 pts armies and they'll walk out the other side. As a stark contrast, I can't name a single caster I would want as my only model in 2K game. The magic simply isn't damaging enough in most cases for a single model to do anything about multiple units. While a good fighty character through combat res can take out a unit of 20+ models in a single round, a caster is more dependent on either killing a unit to a man or having them fail unmodified break checks.

It takes the caster longer to do damage and he risks exploding every time he casts unless he's throwing 1 die.

I see fighty lords all the time, even in Vampire counts. Yes they cast, but have you ever seen a tooled up vamp lord on a dragon? The only time I really see casty lords work is in a dedicated list i.e. WoC Blaster, Tzeentch Daemon flying circus or LM Slann EotG spam.

With Empire, I usually take support characters - 2 wizards and 2 non-wizards. A GotE with GW, AoMI and Rod of Command or a similar setup can and will transform a relatively unassuming unit of State Troops into a respectable anvil and help out with a few kills. A Pegasus Captain with the Casket or a BSB or even a Priest (who is a bit of everything but isn't primarily taken for his bound spells) can help immensely in all kinds of ways - steal spells, march block, hatred on Greatswords, Ld re-rolls...and two wizards (one w/ rod of power, one a caddy) just do what wizards do.

Mastershake wrote:Bloodthirster, Archaon, Kholek Suneater...

Put those three and few others against some 2000 pts armies and they'll walk out the other side. As a stark contrast, I can't name a single caster I would want as my only model in 2K game. The magic simply isn't damaging enough in most cases for a single model to do anything about multiple units. While a good fighty character through combat res can take out a unit of 20+ models in a single round, a caster is more dependent on either killing a unit to a man or having them fail unmodified break checks.

It takes the caster longer to do damage and he risks exploding every time he casts unless he's throwing 1 die.

I see fighty lords all the time, even in Vampire counts. Yes they cast, but have you ever seen a tooled up vamp lord on a dragon? The only time I really see casty lords work is in a dedicated list i.e. WoC Blaster, Tzeentch Daemon flying circus or LM Slann EotG spam.

A combat character usually can't start doing damage on turn 1. And likely not on turn 2.

A combat character also is bound to the weaknesses of the charge mechanic. If a unit of harpies is flanking or march blocking, you can spin a unit with a sorc. around and blast em off the board with magic. Good luck getting a charge off.

A caster unopposed can knock off rank bonuses from several units in a single turn. One comet of cassandora or wind of death could reduce the combat effectiveness of several squads. Or just a few random magic missiles.

Spells can help in the movement phase, magic, shooting, and combat phases, whereas combat only helps in combat. Failed charge? Not with some spells.
4+ ward save on a squad? Yes please. Ability to negate 100 arrows at once in a bubble around the mage? Sure.

Not to mention: If you had no anti-magic whatsoever, you'd be a sitting duck in many situations.

If he casts Curse of Years on your fancypants combat unit on Turn 1 and you can't dispel it, everyone in the squad will be dead by the end of the game even with no one attacking you.

The whole reason that scroll-caddies are basically mandatory for combat armies is because magic is so powerful that people are willing to waste up to 150+ points just to stop a handful of spells.

A super tough combat character still often is obliterated the second a unit of knights charges his squad in the rear, and he can't earn back his points if he's hiding in a corner so that doesn't happen.

You must have some terrible opponents if they can't kill a bloodthirster or archaon with 2000 points of guys.