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Yeah Aht ive seen a few amusing skits from American comedians on that subject. How can you be pro life but want everyone to have a gun? Like the late great Bill Hicks said

"If your so pro-life, why dont you go picket cemetaries?"

There is a big difference between a supporter of the Second Amendment and being for Capitol Punishment.

Perhaps, its not very "pro life" though is it?

I personally do not believe in surgical abortion. Life should not be taken from someone whos only crime was existing.

I agree with you Garret, i dont like the idea of abortion either, but i still think a woman has the right to choose. Who are we to tell her otherwise?

mattyrm wrote:I agree with you Garret, i dont like the idea of abortion either, but i still think a woman has the right to choose. Who are we to tell her otherwise?

We are men of course.

Guns are neither anti-choice nor pro-choice, much the same as hammers, or kitchen knives.

Yeah it was meant in an ironic way obviously, Bill Hicks was a comedian. Needless to say no inanimate object decides to kill anyone.

George Spiggott wrote:

Polonius wrote:Fair market value is what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller, both having a full appreciation of relevant facts and neither being under a compulsion to buy or sell.

White infants are worth more, simply because there are fewer on the market, the buyers have more money, and many aficionados of brown children are happy to buy or rent used, rather than drive a new one off the lot (casual adoption is very prevalent in many African American communities, where a child will live with several family members growing up).

Economic value, and social value, are different things.

That value (market, social or whatever) is what will determine whether a foetus lives or dies. You're inadvertently proposing a form of ethnic cleansing, It's not your intention but it would be the outcome.

i don't think that was what polonius was saying, a high majority of people who want to adopt want a child of the same race, not out of racism but because it allows for a greater sence of family, its bad enough that they can't have their own child, but to have people ask you over and over "who's child are you looking after?" (this was seen when a black couple in england had three albino children, everyone thought she was the nanny, causing emotional pain). and as there are less 'white' infants in the system they are in a greater demand.

garret wrote:I personally do not believe in surgical abortion. Life should not be taken from someone whos only crime was existing.

hats like telling a gardener off for removing a patch of nettles, up to the point set out by the UK act a fetus is just a collection of cells, with no emotions or thoughts, but after that point i do think that it is wrong to abort and you have to decide whether to raise the child or give it up for adoption.

Garret has the right to believe a blastula is a human being.

In a sense he is right, because all human beings were originally blastulas, which grew into foetuses, which grew into babies. This could be considered a kind of syllogism.

Blastulas or foetuses are not capable of surviving to grow into babies by themselves. The mother has to carry them to term, or at least to about 24 weeks when medical intervention can take over with variable results.

Blastulas and foetuses often die of natural causes at some earlier stage of pregnancy -- this is called spontaneous abortion or miscarriage.

The IUD method of birth control works by preventing blastula implantation. If you are a strict pro-lifer, I assume you would oppose IUDs even if you accept other methods of contraception.

Kilkrazy wrote:Garret has the right to believe a blastula is a human being.

Of course he does.

In a sense he is right, because all human beings were originally blastulas, which grew into foetuses, which grew into babies. This could be considered a kind of syllogism.

The fact is, I just have a ridiculously hard time empathizing with a group of cells. We are not talking about an intricate living being here, we are talking about something that holds about as much weight in the world, as a microbe. There is no brain, or anything even showing signs of a brain at that stage. You can talk about souls I suppose, but that really doesn't hold any true weight to me.

What is comes down to is me trying to visualizing all seeds (all of them, everywhere, at all times...) as people. That is just silly to me, even though abortions should by no means taken lightly.

Blastula development, first stages, out of two dozen or so.



Oh, and thanks for the number Relapse.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html

It is basically 1 out of 5, keeping in mind that live births have little to no connection with abortions. A bit unsettling I suppose, but I am pretty sure that the U.S. has statistically low birth rate per capita, compared to many other countries. Just think about what a million more babies a year would mean. How much would be involved in taking care of a million extra kids a year. That burden will go directly onto the government, because I have no doubts that even if some pro-lifers may actually be willing to take care of some kids; there is just no way that they could actually accomplish that.

(2005) Live births= 4138349/ Reported Abortions= 921910/ Estimated Abortions= 1206200

Kilkrazy wrote:Garret has the right to believe a blastula is a human being.

and the women that have or want an abortions, should have the right to do so without people making them feel like monsters, religion and state should be kept apart when making law. A blastula is less advanced than a common cold bactreria cell (a blastula may have more cells, but its just the same basic cell split again and again).

I think abortion are awful , which shouldnt be considered an option unless its for example : rape or the child might be born deformed that cant live properly.
If a couple cannot afford or does not have a good environment to properly raise a child in, they shouldnt be making babies
Hence abortion is not a solution for a horny couple doesnt feel like using a condom.

However , its also sad to see a children raised in an orphanage . Most of them will grow up constantly wondering why they dont have a parent ,
and if its some how their own fault the parents gave them up. Im not saying orphans cannot grow up to be good parents , but chances are
they didnt grow up with good parent as role models on how to be good parents. Which might start a cycle of bad parenting.

I think the society as a whole need to penalize irresponsible couples / incapable parents .
Because i dont think they realize the burden on everyone they have caused.

LunaHound wrote:I think abortion are awful , which shouldnt be considered an option unless its for example : rape or the child might be born deformed that cant live properly.
If a couple cannot afford or does not have a good environment to properly raise a child in, they shouldnt be making babies
Hence abortion is not a solution for a horny couple doesnt feel like using a condom.

Condoms are not the end all to not getting pregnant. That, among other circumstances, make it incredibly hard to 'ration' abortions in the way that you suggested.

I think the society as a whole need to penalize irresponsible couples / incapable parents .
Because i dont think they realize the burden on everyone they have caused.

Having the ability to get abortions as a backup measure, makes all of this a lot simpler.

Wrexasaur wrote:Condoms are not the end all to not getting pregnant.

Its not , but it helps.

ALOT

Of course it does, and as I said before, people that choose to live lifestyles that lead to those kind of decisions, are likely to not be good parents. Or even mediocre parents for that matter.

If you watch interviews of Porn Stars, many of them are very clear in that they would simply not have children when living that life. Most will be likely to quit the profession if/when they have children. There is actually a movement within the industry to make condoms mandatory... which is, to put it simply, absolutely devoid of any business sense.

Looking at the statistics of the industry, you can draw pretty strong conclusions that the most effective way to 'fight' STDs, and unwanted pregnacies; is to have a high level of awareness, along with a system of checking for anything that may cause problems. STDs scare me, even more than having a child while in hard times. Being open about a relationship is very key, but it simply will not stop other people from making rather misinformed decisions.

A woman would have to be pretty weird to think abortion was a good alternative to using contraception. It is a far more difficult, expensive and emotionally draining procedure than any form of contraception. You can even get a "morning after" pill now which reliably prevents conception if you did something the night before you regret in the morning.

The majority of abortions probably happen because many young people are ignorant thanks to low quality sex education, or because of genuine failures of contraception.

Wrexasaur wrote:Of course it does, and as I said before, people that choose to live lifestyles that lead to those kind of decisions, are likely to not be good parents. Or even mediocre parents for that matter.

If you watch interviews of Porn Stars, many of them are very clear in that they would simply not have children when living that life. Most will be likely to quit the profession if/when they have children. There is actually a movement within the industry to make condoms mandatory... which is, to put it simply, absolutely devoid of any business sense.

I know , and i agree with you , thats why i wrote:

I think the society as a whole need to penalize irresponsible couples / incapable parents .
Because i dont think they realize the burden on everyone they have caused.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I don't know how many women on the face of the earth, who know anything about abortion, would ever have the idea that the operation is 'convenient' Polo, any woman with half a brain would be terrified of getting into the circumstance.

This. My ex-girlfriend nearly died, twice, in the course of her abortion, and the followup. It is not a pleasant, or cheap, procedure. The idea that people consider them in the same light as condoms, or the pill, is kind of wonky.

Anyway, I would accept a law that permitted abortions through the 1st trimester. Most women will admit to pregnancy within that period (denial is a really big issue), and the viability of the fetus is sufficiently lacking to placate any naysayers. I'd prefer that there be absolute permissivity, but I acknowledge that to be politically infeasible.

I have strong reservations about discussing this subject on dakka but I just want to say that (1) abortion in the United States is not for most women simply a form of post hoc birth control to escape the consequences of recreational sex and (2) the contemporary US pro-life movement is too narrow in its scope and seems disinterested in dealing with the societal factors that encourage abortion. Personally, I don't think it takes a trained statistician to look at the numbers and see a pattern of latent racism.

Kilkrazy wrote:A woman would have to be pretty weird to think abortion was a good alternative to using contraception. It is a far more difficult, expensive and emotionally draining procedure than any form of contraception. You can even get a "morning after" pill now which reliably prevents conception if you did something the night before you regret in the morning.

Too most, it is a heartwrenching decision that is in no way taken lightly.

The majority of abortions probably happen because many young people are ignorant thanks to low quality sex education, or because of genuine failures of contraception.

Teenagers have sex, it happens. What matters is HOW they do it, and who they choose to do it with. I have even heard that there is this idea that having buttsecks, will preserve your virginity/ act as a contraceptive/ protect you from STDs... at which point, sex education is sorely needed.

mattyrm wrote:Perhaps, its not very "pro life" though is it?

It is indeed, but as you don't understand the 2nd Amendment anyway, I'm not going to bother discussing it with you.

I'm getting slightly worried about the people who are posting "It's the womans choice." and leaving it at that.

I honestly think we should take a deeper look at the Right of Choice vs the Right of Life.

Aren't Abortions expensive?

I think that it's ok to abort until right before contractions, because the baby and the mother are still technically the same person.

Manchu wrote:I have strong reservations about discussing this subject on dakka but I just want to say that (1) abortion in the United States is not for most women simply a form of post hoc birth control to escape the consequences of recreational sex and (2) the contemporary US pro-life movement is too narrow in its scope and seems disinterested in dealing with the societal factors that encourage abortion. Personally, I don't think it takes a trained statistician to look at the numbers and see a pattern of latent racism.

where did you get your end conclusion, can you explain what you are on about in your last point?

abortion isn't nice on the women, its painful and emotionally draining so i agree with point 1, the main thing is education, as seen in the US, just advertising abstanence doesn't work, proper education on the variety of contraceptives and safe sex is a must.

We should just eat the babies.

avantgarde wrote:We should just eat the babies.

Fetuses taste better...

But they're less filling.

True, but it's worth collecting them up.

In anycase, I feel that abortion should still be the womans choice, but mostly as a last resort.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm getting slightly worried about the people who are posting "It's the womans choice." and leaving it at that.

Are you worried simply because these people [myself included] have made an informed decision on the matter, and don't require convincing or converting?

I know personally no matter how hard you preach to me on the matter, I have made my decision from the evidence given to me and will not change that.

@BluntmanDC: PM'd ya.