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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/15 20:55:41
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Leutnant
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Agreed. What you have to remember is that combined arms warfare is what WW2 is all about and FOW reflects this quite well. You can run complete tank lists but your going to loose alot. If you look at armored warfare in detail you'll soon realize that tanks don't last very long unsupported. Tigers are very expensive points wise (quite rightly) and you don't get much bang for your buck.
I'm guessing that your put off the infantry because of the size? If so, don't be intimidated, painting 15mm doesn't have to be complicated and although you have to paint lots (compared to 40k) they are simple and quick to paint.
If you want lots of good tanks and minimal infantry you would be better off starting with a mid war Soviet list, they have the easiest infantry to paint.
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/16 15:44:55
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Regular Dakkanaut
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I agree that balanced armies are the way to go in FOW but it is sometimes fun to go with a completely unbalanced army.
I have learned a lot about infantry by running infantry only lists and a lot about tanks by running tank only lists.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/18 13:43:52
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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Yes i am put off by the size of the infantry but surely the infantry couldn't keep up with the tanks?
Ehh who wants soviets. Everyone knows who has the biggest tanks.
And really a platoon a tank? So how many tigers should i have in an average size list with infantry.
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DT:90S++++G++M--B++I+pw40k08#+D++A+++/mWD-R++T(T)DM+
![]()  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical. " border="0" /> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/18 17:35:15
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Leutnant
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If you read about any tank it'll give you the tank's maximum speed. This speed will be on a surfaced road under ideal conditions. Most tank actions of WW2 (especially late war) would take place in less then ideal situations with the tanks moving at a fraction of that ideal speed. Cross country in the middle of a heavy engagement a Tiger would proberbly be moving at an average speed of 4 or 5 MPH. Tanks do not survive on the battlefield without infantry support, full stop, so tank units would be sure not to out pace their infantry.
Most Tiger lists Ive seen for 1500/2000pt games have about 3-5 Tigers in them. Like I said, their expensive.
The Tiger 1 is far from the wars best or ideal tank, it has very real problems and is far from unbeatable, dont get too caught up in its myths. There are certain universal rules to armoured warfare that cannot be broken, no matter how good you think your tank is.
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/19 07:27:00
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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thank you very much.
but should the infantry be focused on anti tank or anti infantry
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DT:90S++++G++M--B++I+pw40k08#+D++A+++/mWD-R++T(T)DM+
![]()  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical. " border="0" /> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/19 08:39:34
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Leutnant
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Late war German Infantry are good all rounders, they do both well. All infantry in the game have the ability to close assault tanks.
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/19 09:40:37
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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What about mid war as that is what i planning on playing
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DT:90S++++G++M--B++I+pw40k08#+D++A+++/mWD-R++T(T)DM+
![]()  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical. " border="0" /> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/19 14:55:34
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Leutnant
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As above. German infantry are some of the best in the game in all periods. This reflects the Germans excelling at small unit tactics and Command. If you were to run a Tiger COY then you'd be using your infantry to stop his infantry blowing your expensive toys up.
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/19 16:11:01
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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British infantry also tends to be top notch, particularly in Mid-War where most British infantry is confident veteran.
American infantry ranges from decent to excellent, depending on what list you use (normal leg infantry or paratroopers, etc.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/20 08:27:33
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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And then there were soviets lol
How hard can a tiger be to pop and/or how much pain can it possibly bring to be so much?
Thank you for you advice if i can get my freind to start collecting (likely) i will also start.
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DT:90S++++G++M--B++I+pw40k08#+D++A+++/mWD-R++T(T)DM+
![]()  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical. " border="0" /> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/20 12:21:51
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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ChocolateGork wrote:
How hard can a tiger be to pop and/or how much pain can it possibly bring to be so much?
Depends if it has broken down or not... But its really crew quality that counts in the real world.
There are plenty of 'Tiger Aces', such as Knispel, Germanys top tank ace, who built their scores using the Tiger I. One LAH tank crew accounted for 34 T-34 tanks in a two day engagement.
Then of course there is Wittmann and his jaunt through Villers-Bocage.
The Tiger I was an impressive beast. Having had the opportunity to sit in one it has an amazing presence and its easy to see why it created such fear among enemy tank crews.
Of course its only of use for as long as its working, and given the high maintenance requirements thats often not very long... Then it becomes a very expensive roadblock.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/20 12:32:31
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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 damn 34...
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DT:90S++++G++M--B++I+pw40k08#+D++A+++/mWD-R++T(T)DM+
![]()  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical. " border="0" /> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/20 15:39:34
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Leutnant
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I would surmise that the game designers have quite rightly made them so expensive because of their relative rareity. Total production of the Tiger 1 was about 1,300 vehicles, now compare that to the T34 at 57,000! You had a situation in Normandy where the US Army had very real problems with their tank crews reporting every German fighting vehicle they saw as a Tiger. The tanks reputation far exceeded its actual effect and together with the 101 problems it caused in production and maintaining it many experts agree that Germany would have been better off not bothering at all.
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/20 18:47:05
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Private First Class
Houston
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Us rifles are very good in late war. I played rangers in mid-war pre-North Africa book. They were tough to break, but lacked killing power imo. British rifles are great in mid-war and the guards lists in Hell's Highway is nasty. I think the late war US rifle from Dogs& Devils will turn out to be pretty nasty as well once people back of the super artillery list. But time will tell.
German infantry is good, but low model counts typically. A strong artillery list can crack those defensive platoons in my experience. Time on Target ftw baby!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/21 10:37:00
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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Aldramelech wrote:The tanks reputation far exceeded its actual effect and together with the 101 problems it caused in production and maintaining it many experts agree that Germany would have been better off not bothering at all.
But its pyschological impact was something the Germans never expected. 'Tigershock' was a well-known phonomenon as you rightly point out, every tank in Normandy was a Tiger despite the fact that there wasnt a single one in Normandy on the day of the actual invasion.
I think the Tiger and the Panther were worth the resource expenditure but could have been better off with a simpler design. The Tiger for instance suffered from a slow turret traverse compared to the likes of the Shermans and had a tendency to slip its tracks when turning on the spot. One major advantage it did have was the steel used in its construction. As they were built earlier in the war the steel was of a higher grade than that used in later Panthers and didnt suffer from 'splintering' like the Panther, where a non-penetrating hit could cause the low grade steel to splinter and send shards of metal flying around the crew compartment.
With a good crew, and a good werkstatte company, the Tiger was a battle winner. Franz Staudegger of LAH took on 50 T-34s single handed in Russia to prevent a breakthrough. In that one engagement he knocked-out 22 T-34s and caused the rest to withdraw. It was this sort of event that added to the Tiger Is myth of invincibility. The Soviets spent a long time in working out a counter to the Tiger and Panthers, first 85mm AA guns, then the tank destroyers and then finally the JS series. The generally accepted kill ratio is 6 enemy tanks lost for each Tiger lost. Not bad going really, but a non-event when you consider that some Soviet factories produced more tanks in a month than Germany as a whole could produce in a year.
Things such as the Tiger II and its deriatives were a waste, but the real waste to German resources was the sheer mass of variation and different designs that the army had. Lack of standerdisation caused its own problems to bother research and logistics, and the added difficulty of fuel supply would always curtail Germanys ability to be a mechanised army. It was still a primarily horse-drawn army in 1945.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/24 17:32:30
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Sinewy Scourge
Murfreesboro, TN
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Discussions like those above have finally made up my mind for me. For me, wargamming is an extension of my love of "War" history. Something that I think to many people know too little about. In just this post I saw alot of people learning something and if by supporting this game and getting it going at my FLGS I can recreate that there, then that alone would be worth it!
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"I'm not much for prejudice, I prefer to judge people by whats inside, and how much fun it is to get to those insides." - Unknown Haemonculi |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/25 12:07:36
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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gardeth wrote: For me, wargamming is an extension of my love of "War" history. Something that I think to many people know too little about.
Yup thats about right.
I tend to play historically based games and dont use points systems (I dont think they had them in WW2) but if thats what floats your boat then fair enough.
I like to use reasonably accurate forces in games, rather than ones built to win Tournies. Again if thats how you play and enjoy it then thats cool, just not my cup of tea.
I do wish people took a little more time to think about the history though... A few people actually died driving the real versions of the toy tanks. Wouldnt hurt for people to take a little time and learn more out of respect.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/25 14:29:20
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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AYE True that
The main reason i want to get into it is because my friend is a dictionary of the most random history about wars and is interested and i really would like to know more than i already do.
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DT:90S++++G++M--B++I+pw40k08#+D++A+++/mWD-R++T(T)DM+
![]()  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! <small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical. " border="0" /> |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/25 16:42:40
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Leutnant
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Its a great period. Its also full of misconceptions, urban myths and false assumptions. When I first became interested there was no history channel, no internet, you had to go and find things out the hard way and pick up a book. If FOW makes just a few people do that then its worth it.
I'm not a huge fan of Battlefront it has to be said, I dislike their overprotective attitude to their rule set, WW2 gaming was around long before they turned up, but you'd be forgiven if you thought they invented it! lol
But they have managed to pull alot more people into mainstream wargaming so I temper my irritation with them.
Buy their rules, their quite good but don't be constrained by them. They are a good starting point but you can have alot more fun with them if you apply what you learn about the period.
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The Lieutenant is a Punk! And a pretty 2nd rate Punk at that.......
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/25 20:20:12
Subject: HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Regular Dakkanaut
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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A someone who moved to playing Flames of War from playing more detailed historical rulesets, I really appreciate the effort that Battlefront has made to make the rules more accesible.
It is the first ruleset that my club has used that most people actually know the rules and one of the few where the game actually comes to a conclusion in the time available.
I still enjoy running Command Decision (my original rules of choice) from time to time but in most ways, Flames of War is more "fun"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/08/19 10:06:33
Subject: Re:HELP: Thinking about starting Flames of War
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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I actually just started FOW, I have been a die hard 40K player for over a decade...the game goes through ups and downs and gets more out of whack with each new iteration. I like that flames of war rules stay he same and our fast and flexible and actually need some tactical sense to play effectively. the source books add new units to period of time and limit list from uber broken by limiting super powerful units.
as for new players to the game, i suggest that you look at the us...there easy to paint and a few switches can change from mid / late war with out breaking the bank. they are flexible and can pack a punch in numbers. But remember that combined arms will trump a straight anything list. gotta think ahead.
the start game...with mini rule book is a great value as you also get some starter tanks....check Ebay for some great deals
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The difficult anytime, the impossible by appointment only!! |
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