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Lootas absolutely wreck Daemon Princes. A good roll on your first turn Loota volley can(and often does) remove a pesky Lash of Submission from the game.

Don't leave home without 'em.

Pika_power wrote:What's the general consensus on Killa Kans? Are they a suitable replacement for the Grot screen?

As for the notion of hitting on turn 2: DashofPepper often talks about having your entire army hit at once. Opinions?

Killa kans are a suitable replacement for the grot screen. More pricey but more killy and more vulnerable to being killed.

Having your entire army hit at once is nice where possible but not necessary, depending on what's hitting, where it's hitting, and its capacity to be hit back. Throwing your nob bikers into an enemy flank that has little ability to deal with them is highly effective. They can chew up and spit out that flank with impunity. Throwing Snikrot kommandos into the rear of an enemy formation to take out high value targets is great, even if they die in retaliation. I often field a big mob of sluggas with Grotsnik and point them straight at the enemy with the goal of having them be focused on by my opponent to buy my other more fragile elements more breathing room.

So it all depends on what you're attacking with, how tough it is, and how soon you're going to support it with other elements.

Killa Kans are not more vulnerable to being killed than grots. Grots die to a single lack-luster close combat, or to cover-ignoring ranged firepower. Kans are dead 'ard.

Killa Kans work best with a KFF giving them a 4+ cover save.

Practically impossible to take out at range before they get to you1

willydstyle wrote:Killa Kans are not more vulnerable to being killed than grots. Grots die to a single lack-luster close combat, or to cover-ignoring ranged firepower. Kans are dead 'ard.

Let me rephrase. Grots tend to live longer than kans until your horde reaches the enemy. The reason is that the kinds of things a line of grots is vulnerable to, close combat and anti-infantry fire, are short-ranged affairs and are the same things that your boyz are vulnerable to. If they shoot the grot screen instead of your boyz with their rapid firing bolters, that's a win for you because you're done with the grots at that point and you'd rather have more boyz.
Kans OTOH are vulnerable to things that boyz aren't vulnerable to: autocannons, missiles, and all the other kinds of long-ranged anti-tank. Where every shot taken at the grots is one that's not shot at your boyz, kans are vulnerable to that high-strength weaponry that would be otherwise wasted on boyz, and then your opponent is free to use his anti-infantry stuff against the boyz. Don't get me wrong, Kans with 4+ cover are dead 'ard, but not unkillable by any means. Massed firepower can certainly knock them over whereas an Ork horde with no vehicles or nobs just makes lascannons and their ilk pretty much useless.

Culler wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Killa Kans are not more vulnerable to being killed than grots. Grots die to a single lack-luster close combat, or to cover-ignoring ranged firepower. Kans are dead 'ard.

Let me rephrase. Grots tend to live longer than kans until your horde reaches the enemy. The reason is that the kinds of things a line of grots is vulnerable to, close combat and anti-infantry fire, are short-ranged affairs and are the same things that your boyz are vulnerable to. If they shoot the grot screen instead of your boyz with their rapid firing bolters, that's a win for you because you're done with the grots at that point and you'd rather have more boyz.
Kans OTOH are vulnerable to things that boyz aren't vulnerable to: autocannons, missiles, and all the other kinds of long-ranged anti-tank. Where every shot taken at the grots is one that's not shot at your boyz, kans are vulnerable to that high-strength weaponry that would be otherwise wasted on boyz, and then your opponent is free to use his anti-infantry stuff against the boyz. Don't get me wrong, Kans with 4+ cover are dead 'ard, but not unkillable by any means. Massed firepower can certainly knock them over whereas an Ork horde with no vehicles or nobs just makes lascannons and their ilk pretty much useless.

Agreed, one of the best things about footsloggers is that the meta is primarily mechanised, so all those lascannons and meltas and autocannons don't affect you at all. A lot of people have very few flamers and ordenance anymore because of the prevelance of mech, which makes Horde Orks viable once more.

go goff.
lots of boys meanes that your army can take a lot of long range damage and still have more troops than the enemy unit.

I have played a ork hord with my marines i knew what was coming so i took 2 vinicators and some land speeder squadrons with assualt cannons killed 78 orks on his way to me and then my 2 tacs with HB and flamers owned. If you know whats coming there easy to counter.

EagleArk wrote:I have played a ork hord with my marines i knew what was coming so i took 2 vinicators and some land speeder squadrons with assualt cannons killed 78 orks on his way to me and then my 2 tacs with HB and flamers owned. If you know whats coming there easy to counter.

Um...clearly he wasn't using them right, because I find people don't even get the chance to flame or rapid fire them.

Also, I think that Whirlwinds with their ant-cover are better against hordes.

And the speeders shouldn't live long if they bring enough Lootas.

The Grot screen doesn't always work if the army is going to run. If grots run 1" and the boys run 6" the grots won't work very well as a screen.

Grots are also not fearless. It would be easy for an IG army to inflict 25% casualties on a unit of grots, all it takes is 8 dead grots who have no cover save. After that hit them with a psycher battle squad for morale overkill. If the grots fail 1 morale test they will fall back behind the boys making them useless as a screen.

Other armies should inflict 25% casualties on the grots until they break. I honestly don't see why armies dump small arms fire into T4 orks instead of T2 grots. IG for example, a single 1st rank fire 2nd rank fire will wipe out a unit of grots leaving the orks behind them exposed with no cover save.

A big mek with the force field in a 30 strong unit of orks makes a better screening unit. It's only a 5+ cover save, but it's harder to get rid of.

Snikkyd wrote:

EagleArk wrote:I have played a ork hord with my marines i knew what was coming so i took 2 vinicators and some land speeder squadrons with assualt cannons killed 78 orks on his way to me and then my 2 tacs with HB and flamers owned. If you know whats coming there easy to counter.

Um...clearly he wasn't using them right, because I find people don't even get the chance to flame or rapid fire them.

Also, I think that Whirlwinds with their ant-cover are better against hordes.

And the speeders shouldn't live long if they bring enough Lootas.

Snikkyd i was playing a very terrain board weroll 2D6 -3 for amount of terrain (we had nine pieces).
He had to move around all that terrian and coulden get line of sight on the Land Speeders.

EagleArk wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:

EagleArk wrote:I have played a ork hord with my marines i knew what was coming so i took 2 vinicators and some land speeder squadrons with assualt cannons killed 78 orks on his way to me and then my 2 tacs with HB and flamers owned. If you know whats coming there easy to counter.

Um...clearly he wasn't using them right, because I find people don't even get the chance to flame or rapid fire them.

Also, I think that Whirlwinds with their ant-cover are better against hordes.

And the speeders shouldn't live long if they bring enough Lootas.

Snikkyd i was playing a very terrain board weroll 2D6 -3 for amount of terrain (we had nine pieces).
He had to move around all that terrian and coulden get line of sight on the Land Speeders.

Well I never denied that its possible, just that nothings perfect.

By cover, I mean Grot screens and/or KFF.

It just sounds like your tailoring, which I don't really like. You can counter any army if you tailor, but an all comers build will encounter some problems with an Ork horde.

He did have a grot screen but i made his grot screen flee of the table and had free fire at his orks.

60 grots screening with the rerolling leadership should be decent enough. A bit more than half the cost of 9 kans with grotz.

However ill be going with a dreadbash list seeing as the new models are coming out. My only problem is the lack of far ranged anti tank because im in love with grotzookas. I've been thinking about a mouse and cat with warbuggies cept im not sure if it'd work

Why not do both Grots and Killa Kans? Would it work?

You just don't really need both, as the purpose is to give a 4+ cover save, and anti-assault shield, to the boyz behind the screening units.

The grots get assaulted and die, then the boyz mop up

vs.

The Kans get assaulted and probably tie up the assaulting unit. This gives the boyz two choices: they can either assault the guys fighting the kans, or they can choose other targets until they choose to participate in the combat.

That's why I like the Kans better: they offer more strategic diversity.

One of the ork players at my FLGS runs a unit of 20 Grots in his footsloggin list... he says it is big enough to absorb enough fire and be large enough to be an anti assault shield but small enough where your opponent wipes it out the turn they charge it...

Kinda handy when you equipped all your boyz with shootas... I hear 59 S4 shots at Bs 2 kinda killy...

59 shots... ~19 hit... 9 Wounds... (rounded down each time)

20 Grots survive long enough to keep the boyz alive? wow. thats a shock (no sarcasm)

daemon wrote:20 Grots survive long enough to keep the boyz alive? wow. thats a shock (no sarcasm)

20 grots is usually enough for me. They only really need to be there for turn 1-2 and maybe 3 at the outmost and their main purpose is more of an assault shield than to generate the 4+ cover.

Shooting gets rid of orks slowly, assault gets rid of them all at once. It is imperative you not let your boyz get charged. Grotz or kanz fulfill that function.

Perhaps march 20 grots behind your green tide to prevent outflankers and the like?

Better, stick the grots at the front with Grotsnik. The grots are now fearless, and you have a 30 man strong shield that needs to be worn down by shooting.

Pika_power wrote:Perhaps march 20 grots behind your green tide to prevent outflankers and the like?

Better, stick the grots at the front with Grotsnik. The grots are now fearless, and you have a 30 man strong shield that needs to be worn down by shooting.

Yeah but that is a total waste of his FnP.

its weird how so many people have mentioned that idea but don't realise that grots are only t2 which means basically every gun but a lasgun can cause instant death and take away FnP

We have the perfect Guard-horde counter then. :p

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

daemon wrote:20 Grots survive long enough to keep the boyz alive? wow. thats a shock (no sarcasm)

20 grots is usually enough for me. They only really need to be there for turn 1-2 and maybe 3 at the outmost and their main purpose is more of an assault shield than to generate the 4+ cover.

Shooting gets rid of orks slowly, assault gets rid of them all at once. It is imperative you not let your boyz get charged. Grotz or kanz fulfill that function.

I agree with bravelybravesirrobin. Grots ALWAYS make up their points by preventing wounds and preventing assaults; they are one of the few defensive Ork choices. Also, assaulting first should be the goal of a footslogging list, hence the Waaagh rule (and the eager look on your average Ork model's face - he needs to get stuck in NOW!)

So what about kans then? Are they just completely run out by grots as a shield unless the army is kan themed? Because 20 grots is like less than a quarter of what kans cost (im estimating) This leaves room for koptas/lootas/snikrot or some auxiliary unit that your lacking in. Im starting to think whether my dream dreadbash list is really worth building =p

Grot shields are all very well, but i would rather have orks at twice the price.

Sure you get half the wounds and half the cover, but you have double the T. Forget the grots, just take more boyz. Points spent on boyz are points well spent, if half die on the way it doesn't matter the other half can still do the job.

Kans in the orks is a much nastier idea. I have six kans, and nine is common enough.

Orlanth wrote:Grot shields are all very well, but i would rather have orks at twice the price.

Sure you get half the wounds and half the cover, but you have double the T. Forget the grots, just take more boyz. Points spent on boyz are points well spent, if half die on the way it doesn't matter the other half can still do the job.

Kans in the orks is a much nastier idea. I have six kans, and nine is common enough.

They're a force multiplier that costs 80 pts and gets the 600pts of orks behind them to work more effectively both in a shooting battle and because they work as an assault screen.

I could pay double the price and I would receive no added utility because I expect the grots to die horribly. Or I could pay the same price and not have enough models for a large enough frontage for my screen to work.


As for whether kanz have a purpose, yes, they do the same job of screening as grots but better because they're tougher and fearless AND they can actually kill things. 9 DCCW's is a threatening prospect for anybody and help orks deal with the elite assault units that we have trouble with (like other orks using nob bikers or khorne berserkers). And with rokkits they provide our best source of accurate anti-tank/high strength/low ap firepower.

Grots and kanz both work as force multipliers for the boyz behind them. Grotz are cheaper and so let you have more boyz. Kanz allow you less boyz but make up for it with the killing power that they themselves bring to the table.