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solkan wrote: As much as some posters will vehemently disagree, there are no official GW FAQ statements which say "Harmful effects cannot affect embarked units".

nor is there anything in the rules or the faq's that state "Harmful effect CAN affect embarked units". if you allow this to work on embarked units, then so should template and pie plates affect embarked units. they affect everything within 1" or 2.5" of the center and templates affect everything under them.

hey OP, how about adding a neutrally worded poll along the lines of "Can the Doom of Malantai affect units within range but embarked on transports? yes no".

You did see that he is not an eternal warrior right?

Even if you find some judge to agree with you he will get little or no chance to use this power.

Yeah, last time I saw this discussion I thought 'Hmmm, T4 eh?'

Really, he's only 5 (on average) high strength shots away from death.

*counts his EMLs, Bright Lances, and Fire Dragons*

That'll do.

Orkestra wrote:Yeah, last time I saw this discussion I thought 'Hmmm, T4 eh?'

Really, he's only 5 (on average) high strength shots away from death.

*counts his EMLs, Bright Lances, and Fire Dragons*

That'll do.

hell i popped it first turn with a my chaos dread's multimelta. It's just another Zope, it pops like all the others

Solkan has once again saved me from having to type out a long answer. His post is correct.

If the transport is within 6" the *unit* is within 6", thus will be effected by Doom.
Blast markers work by counting models under the marker, which is why they fail in this situation.

And of course Doom is only T4, it is only 90pts, not supposed to be an IWIN button. But can show up, make 2-3 units lose some guys, toss a S8 AP2 pie plate.... and then if it dies... oh well.

6 Genestealer squads, each with a Broodlord with Aura of despair.

"This psychic power is used at the beginning of your Assault phase. If successful, all enemy units within 12" of the Broodlord suffer a -1 penalty to their Leadership until the end of the following player turn. If an enemy unit is within range of several Broodlords using this power, the modifiers are cumulative."

Stack a bunch of them up then deep strike Doom of Malan'tai in near them to annihilate some squads with life drain and get off a S10 AP1 Large Blast on the turn you arrive.

Sure it's a huge investment in a not too effective army, but the look on your opponenets face if he has any units bunched up together would be almost worth it...

The Spirit Leech power is used in your shooting phase I thought? Which suggests you couldnt get the Aura off...

nosferatu1001 wrote:The Spirit Leech power is used in your shooting phase I thought? Which suggests you couldnt get the Aura off...

The Aura is just a thing that happens every shooting phase, it's not shooting, he would in theory use the aura then shoot every time his own shooting phase came up (assuming he passes the Psychic test and has a target in LOS)

edit: Wait I was confused... maybe we both were... Spirit Leech is the life draining aura, Cataclysm is the Psychic Shooting attack.

I meant Spirit Leech - in order to get the extra wounds you use Spirit Leech first, then fire the big boom attack.

However, as the Aura happens in your assault phase, unless Spirit Leech goes off every turn you would not get the benefits of the lowered leadership - as Spirit Leech happens before your Assault phase.

WOuld mean you would have a turn of shooting the Thrope (assuming Leech works every player turn) before you get the massive leadership drop...

nosferatu1001 wrote:I meant Spirit Leech - in order to get the extra wounds you use Spirit Leech first, then fire the big boom attack.

However, as the Aura happens in your assault phase, unless Spirit Leech goes off every turn you would not get the benefits of the lowered leadership - as Spirit Leech happens before your Assault phase.

WOuld mean you would have a turn of shooting the Thrope (assuming Leech works every player turn) before you get the massive leadership drop...

Oh wow, somehow I missed that the genestealer psychic power was from your assault phase, thus the confusion, I see your point now, oh well, guess all you can do is use Deathleaper on a character and then drop Doom of Malan'tai near him, no genestealer leadership modifier spam :(

Alas a slow connection creates yet another double post....

All I need are my D cannons or Wraithguard...one shot no big slimmy bugger in my lines....

tetrisphreak wrote:again, and i'm not trying to be argumentative here but inquisitive, the wording is where this rules-lawyering makes all the difference. does the BRB say 'affected by psychic powers' or 'targeted by psychic powers'? i will stop by my FLGS on my lunch break and look it up, because the wording does make a very big difference in this tactical combo.

That's all I needed to know about your attitude towards playing this game....

I fielded the doom last night and did not allow him to affect vehicles or embarked units, and his power did suffer in that respect than when i first used him. However, it seems as if the ruling from page 66 saves my cheesy tactic and will help when drop podding behind tau and IG enemy lines in the future. Sure if i fail a 3+ save from a railgun or demo cannon i will lose the model, but for 90 points plus the cost of a drop spore the potential for damage and disruption is great enough for me to warrant the elite slot.

thanks for the BRB reference i can take to my FLGS the next time i play with this unit, hopefully it keeps things on the table top civil, just as i like them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:again, and i'm not trying to be argumentative here but inquisitive, the wording is where this rules-lawyering makes all the difference. does the BRB say 'affected by psychic powers' or 'targeted by psychic powers'? i will stop by my FLGS on my lunch break and look it up, because the wording does make a very big difference in this tactical combo.

That's all I needed to know about your attitude towards playing this game....

Apparently you've never played magic the gathering...rules lawyering is the only way to competitively survive with that game. I have carried that attitude over to warhammer 40k, and i'll be the first to admit it.

Drunkspleen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I meant Spirit Leech - in order to get the extra wounds you use Spirit Leech first, then fire the big boom attack.

However, as the Aura happens in your assault phase, unless Spirit Leech goes off every turn you would not get the benefits of the lowered leadership - as Spirit Leech happens before your Assault phase.

WOuld mean you would have a turn of shooting the Thrope (assuming Leech works every player turn) before you get the massive leadership drop...

Oh wow, somehow I missed that the genestealer psychic power was from your assault phase, thus the confusion, I see your point now, oh well, guess all you can do is use Deathleaper on a character and then drop Doom of Malan'tai near him, no genestealer leadership modifier spam :(

You can still do the -LD bomb with Spirit Leech. remember Spirit Leech goes off at the beginning of EVERY shooting phase (before the opponent shoots), and Aura of Despair lasts through the enemy turn also. So your opponent will have to move his models during their turn, or they are going to get hit by Spirit Leech, and take the -LD from the Broodlord(s) too.

tetrisphreak wrote:I fielded the doom last night and did not allow him to affect vehicles or embarked units, and his power did suffer in that respect than when i first used him. However, it seems as if the ruling from page 66 saves my cheesy tactic and will help when drop podding behind tau and IG enemy lines in the future. Sure if i fail a 3+ save from a railgun or demo cannon i will lose the model, but for 90 points plus the cost of a drop spore the potential for damage and disruption is great enough for me to warrant the elite slot.

thanks for the BRB reference i can take to my FLGS the next time i play with this unit, hopefully it keeps things on the table top civil, just as i like them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:again, and i'm not trying to be argumentative here but inquisitive, the wording is where this rules-lawyering makes all the difference. does the BRB say 'affected by psychic powers' or 'targeted by psychic powers'? i will stop by my FLGS on my lunch break and look it up, because the wording does make a very big difference in this tactical combo.

That's all I needed to know about your attitude towards playing this game....

Apparently you've never played magic the gathering...rules lawyering is the only way to competitively survive with that game. I have carried that attitude over to warhammer 40k, and i'll be the first to admit it.

The first rule of 40k, don't talk about 40k. Wait....oh yeah. It is have fun. Honestly, trying to create all this cheesy tactics, rule bending and whatnot, it just loses the spirit of the game and people will learn that more of the game will be spent arguing over a rulebook rather than having fun and rolling dice.

As for the whole 'rule lawyering' from MTG, you are going to learn alot of people don't put up with that, so best try to work on toning it down a bit.

Why do people consider Rules Lawyering bad? I always assumed clarifying rules and following them as they are written, rather than some made up version, was how people enjoyed the game?

considering other powers which target units have no effect on embarked units I find this highly unlikely.

examples; Nurgles Rot, slave snares, crucible of malediction, etc.

theres no way this power effects embarked models, unless the rule for the power specifically states "as well as models embarked" or something along the lines of "even models embarked".

It doesn't have to say that. The Unit is within the range of the power. Nothing says they are not affected, so they are affected.

so if I fly a raider with slave snares over a rhino that targets any units moved over I can hit the models in the rhino?

blaktoof wrote:so if I fly a raider with slave snares over a rhino that targets any units moved over I can hit the models in the rhino?

No, because Slave Snares has completely different Language.

Slave Snares state "If the Raider passes over an enemy unit". The Unit is not on the table, so it cannot be passed over by the raider.

Spirit Leech, on the other hand, states "At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai [...]"
Page 66 of the BRB states "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Thus, you measure to the hull for Spirit Leech.

So next time you try and be snarky, try and do it right.

the unit is not on the table for the spirit leech power if its in a transport either...so how is it within 6"?

your not making any kind of logic.

and if you just want to use the rule from pg 66 of the BRB then for the purpose of slave snares the unit is measured to be at the hull of the vehicle, the raider can move over the hull of a vehicle. If I want to measure range of the unit from the path of raider movement and check that the range is 0" deviation then It would be at the 0" point of the raider being over a rhino during movement.

blaktoof wrote:the unit is not on the table for the spirit leech power if its in a transport either...so how is it within 6"?

your not making any kind of logic.

-Sigh- Did you read my post? Specifically where I pointed out page 66 which is the rule that allows Spirit Leech to affect the unit?

pg 66 doesnt say spirit leech.

blaktoof wrote:and if you just want to use the rule from pg 66 of the BRB then for the purpose of slave snares the unit is measured to be at the hull of the vehicle, the raider can move over the hull of a vehicle. If I want to measure range of the unit from the path of raider movement and check that the range is 0" deviation then It would be at the 0" point of the raider being over a rhino during movement.

Errm... No? You don't measure the range for the Slave snares, so page 66 never comes into play.

blaktoof wrote:the unit is not on the table for the spirit leech power if its in a transport either...so how is it within 6"?

your not making any kind of logic.

and if you just want to use the rule from pg 66 of the BRB then for the purpose of slave snares the unit is measured to be at the hull of the vehicle, the raider can move over the hull of a vehicle. If I want to measure range of the unit from the path of raider movement and check that the range is 0" deviation then It would be at the 0" point of the raider being over a rhino during movement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sure you do, the range is 0" from the vehicle along the path of the vehicle.

blaktoof wrote:pg 66 doesnt say spirit leech.

No, it has a generic rule that allows it to work with Spirit Leech, Rites of Battle, and other affects. The rulebook doesn't say I can't launch ICBMs at your Dog either.

blaktoof wrote:Sure you do, the range is 0" from the vehicle along the path of the vehicle.

What? Have you actually read the DE codex?

The rule is thus:

[Fluff]
If the Raider passes over an enemy unit during the Movement phase, and does not move more than 12" in total, the unit takes D6 Strength 4 hits, with normal armour saves allowd.
[Victory Point Rules]

At what point do you measure any form of range there?

So my Nightmare Shroud WILL work on units embarked in transport then by your logic

Kurgash wrote:So my Nightmare Shroud WILL work on units embarked in transport then by your logic

Yes, it works. However, the problem being discussed is what happens if they fail the Morale test. That problem has nothing to do whether it affects the unit or not.

awesome! so i can slavesnare a unit that is 0" from my raider embarked in a rhino.

I can also now use boon of mutation on embarked models who turn into spawn inside the vehicle that I control since it states "if the enemy model is found to be within 6" of the daemon, no line of sight is required" Does the spawn end up in hand to hand or what? how do you do assaults inside a vehicle?

I guess aura of decay and nurgles rot now effect models embarked as it states "all enemy models within 6" and pg 66 states......

or possibly the rule on page 66 pertains only for things involving the unit inside the embarked vehicle since embarked models cannot be target by anything.

blaktoof wrote:awesome! so i can slavesnare a unit that is 0" from my raider embarked in a rhino.

Errm, were you listening at all? You can't. I have pointed out (twice) why you can't.