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Now, in pure RaW form, the DoM was a Zoanthrope, then it was modified, now it is a DoM.

Just saying. (Note: this is not how I would play it)

Gwar! wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Does it not take into account that in the description of the Doom on his storyline page he is a "modified zoanthrope"?

Fluff is not rules.

The rules clearly state "The Zoanthrope has a 3+ invulnerable save", not "The Zoanthrope (including the Doom of Malbiscuits) has a 3+ Invulnerable save".

Cite your source. There is no unit called the "Doom of Malbiscuits" nor rules referencing it.

ph34r wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Does it not take into account that in the description of the Doom on his storyline page he is a "modified zoanthrope"?

Fluff is not rules.

The rules clearly state "The Zoanthrope has a 3+ invulnerable save", not "The Zoanthrope (including the Doom of Malbiscuits) has a 3+ Invulnerable save".

Cite your source. There is no unit called the "Doom of Malbiscuits" nor rules referencing it.

Ok, fine, you smartarse.

The Rules for the Tyranid Unit called "Zoanthropes", found on page 44 of the 5th edition Tyranid Codex, has a special rule called "Warp Field" which states: "A Warp Field grants a Zoanthrope a 3+ invulnerable save."
The Tyranid Unit "Doom of Malan'tai", found on page 58 of the 5th edition Tyranid Codex, has the Special Rule "Warp Field", which additionally states "see page 44", thus referring back to the Zoanthropes rule. Thus, the "Doom of Malan'tai" has a special rule which states "A Warp Field grants a Zoanthrope a 3+ invulnerable save."

As the "Doom of Malan'tai" is not a "Zoanthrope" it does not get the 3+ invulnerable save stated in the Warp Field Special Rule.

Happy now?

Unfortunately this brings up more questions than answers! You see, "A Warp Field grants a Zoanthrope a 3+ invulnerable save." It does not specify "the zoanthrope" or "the bearer of this". It says *a* Zoanthrope. As it does not specify which, there is no way of knowing which Zoanthrope is supposed to receive the invulnerable save, unless there is only one Zoanthrope in game. Therefore, playing that your Zoanthropes have an invulnerable save if you take more than one is Cheating.

ph34r wrote:Unfortunately this brings up more questions than answers! You see, "A Warp Field grants a Zoanthrope a 3+ invulnerable save." It does not specify "the zoanthrope" or "the bearer of this". It says *a* Zoanthrope. As it does not specify which, there is no way of knowing which Zoanthrope is supposed to receive the invulnerable save, unless there is only one Zoanthrope in game. Therefore, playing that your Zoanthropes have an invulnerable save if you take more than one is Cheating.

Actually, no. If you had a BASIC understanding of the English (as opposed to whatever you speak over there) Language, you would know that the phrase "A Zoanthrope" can, in fact, refer to any Zoanthrope, mainly because the Special rule is a Special rule that applies only to the actual model itself, rather than a army wide special rule that can apply to multiple models.

Gwar! wrote:You constant (and pitiful) attempts at trolling are getting quite tiresome.

So are yours!

It could refer to any zoanthrope, but it does not specify which. Basic English comprehension reveals that this is a lot more vague than you would hope.
I would hope that you would accept criticism of your bad rules interpretations without accusations of trolling, as you are aware that you yourself are sometimes accepted as not trolling as well.
EDIT: I suppose in a friendly game against you I might let you randomize which invulnerable saves go where, but that feels too RAI and I would prefer to follow the RAW.

ph34r wrote:It could refer to any zoanthrope, but it does not specify which.

Yes, it does. It refers to the Zoanthrope which has the special rule. This would be important were it possible for a Zoanthrope NOT to have Warp Field, but a Zoanthrope always does, rendering it redundant in fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:EDIT: I suppose in a friendly game against you I might let you randomize which invulnerable saves go where, but that feels too RAI and I would prefer to follow the RAW.

You mean, the RaW that each Zoanthrope has a 3+ Invulnerable save? Because Each model has the Warp Field Special rule? Because it is not Possible for a Zoanthrope model to NOT have the Warp Field Rule?

Is this argument honestly happening?

I would hope my opponent would see the warp field as a 3++ save, because that is one thing that i'm fairly sure the Doom is SUPPOSED to have, RAW be damned.

tetrisphreak wrote:I would hope my opponent would see the warp field as a 3++ save, because that is one thing that i'm fairly sure the Doom is SUPPOSED to have, RAW be damned.

I agree.

Fetterkey wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:I would hope my opponent would see the warp field as a 3++ save, because that is one thing that i'm fairly sure the Doom is SUPPOSED to have, RAW be damned.

I agree.

I don't. Doom is not a Zoanthrope. He is a Doom of Malan'tai.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I don't. Doom is not a Zoanthrope. He is a Doom of Malan'tai.

Indeed. RaW, the DoM does not get the save.

However, would you, InquisitorFabius, be willing to allow the DoM to benefit from the Warp Field rule in the Spirit of Good Sportsmanship (on the condition that your opponent was not a complete Richard, in which case you are well within your rights to pull a Richard out the box)?

Do my SW drop pods suddenly get to transport 12 models?

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:I would hope my opponent would see the warp field as a 3++ save, because that is one thing that i'm fairly sure the Doom is SUPPOSED to have, RAW be damned.

I agree.

I don't. Doom is not a Zoanthrope. He is a Doom of Malan'tai.

And i can argue that he IS a zoanthrope. a *Mutated* zoanthrope, but a zoanthrope nonetheless. He should have a 3++ save like the others. Hopefully I don't run into any Richards myself.

tetrisphreak wrote:What's the purpose of Warp Field then?

I was just thinking this...

Fluff does not make rules.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Fluff does not make rules.

That is true. Hopefully they release errata that modifies the WarpField entry, and until then i hope i do not play against anyone who feels as strongly as you seem to about disallowing the Doom's 3++ save.

I feel the same way about Deathleaper's Chameleonic Skin, since the special rule states Lictors, and never mentions a Deathleaper.

It's also the same for Old One Eye and Living Battering Ram

Yes, but we have already had that conversation.

Gameplay and rules aside, however, can you at least admit that perhaps they should have written those entries better to reflect the fact that Death Leapers *are* lictors, and DoM *is* a Zoey?

tetrisphreak wrote:Gameplay and rules aside, however, can you at least admit that perhaps they should have written those entries better to reflect the fact that Death Leapers *are* lictors, and DoM *is* a Zoey?

They should have.

Sadly, they did not. Thus, they do not benefit from the rules. It's really that simple I am afraid.

I do, with all my heart, wish they had included the wording that it would cover the relevant special chars, but they chose not to.

Gwar! wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Gameplay and rules aside, however, can you at least admit that perhaps they should have written those entries better to reflect the fact that Death Leapers *are* lictors, and DoM *is* a Zoey?

They should have.

Sadly, they did not. Thus, they do not benefit from the rules. It's really that simple I am afraid.

I will have to discuss this with my local tournament organizer before metagaming for our 2500 pt game on 2/6/2010

tetrisphreak wrote:I will have to discuss this with my local tournament organizer before metagaming for our 2500 pt game on 2/6/2010

That you should.
If I may Humbly suggest that you suggest he use the Unofficial Codex: Tyranids FAQ v1.1 by Gwar! (link found in my Signature)? I can assure you that it will cover the majority of issues that may arise on the day.

I have read the FAQ and feel it does clarify a lot of murky areas in the new codex.

A little background info, the man who runs the 40k tournaments is the store owner who has been wargaming longer than i've been alive. He's pretty genial and tends to play by the RaW. there are a few instances, however, where the codex wording is obviously an oversight (in his opinion) and he allows certain things RaI. Since he is the store owner and contributor of the prizes for our monthly outings, and there are no entry fees to play, we usually have no trouble following his consensus on some ambiguous rules. (for example, his house rule is DoM does NOT affect units embarked in vehicles, which is why i am metagaming as if that is the actual rule). I'm hoping he will allow the 3++ save. If not i will probably not field the doom.

Gwar! wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:I don't. Doom is not a Zoanthrope. He is a Doom of Malan'tai.

Indeed. RaW, the DoM does not get the save.

However, would you, InquisitorFabius, be willing to allow the DoM to benefit from the Warp Field rule in the Spirit of Good Sportsmanship (on the condition that your opponent was not a complete Richard, in which case you are well within your rights to pull a Richard out the box)?

If your opponent is such a jerk you probably should not play him in the first place, instead of trying to force your "right" of taking away his 3+ invulnerable. Because really, if he is so bad that you being a total jackass is less bad, something is wrong.

Unless of course you are at a tournament, in which case you would not be able to deny playing someone. Fortunately I think you will find that tournament organizers will not agree with Gwar's misinterpretation.

the phrase 'misinterpretation' is a bit harsh. I can see Gwar!'s point on this one, but i feel the Warp Field ability would not be given to a model simply to be ineffective, and that the wording in warp field's entry refers to zoanthropes because that's the unit for which it's being described. However, the fact that the Doom has the ability, along with it's reference to the rule's 3++ granting ability, tells me the author intended for DoM to have the save.

ph34r wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:I don't. Doom is not a Zoanthrope. He is a Doom of Malan'tai.

Indeed. RaW, the DoM does not get the save.

However, would you, InquisitorFabius, be willing to allow the DoM to benefit from the Warp Field rule in the Spirit of Good Sportsmanship (on the condition that your opponent was not a complete Richard, in which case you are well within your rights to pull a Richard out the box)?

If your opponent is such a jerk you probably should not play him in the first place, instead of trying to force your "right" of taking away his 3+ invulnerable. Because really, if he is so bad that you being a total jackass is less bad, something is wrong.

Unless of course you are at a tournament, in which case you would not be able to deny playing someone. Fortunately I think you will find that tournament organizers will not agree with Gwar's misinterpretation.

It is not a Misinterpretation. As has been pointed out, MULTIPLE times, the rules for Warp Field do not mention the Doom of Malan'tai in any way, shape or form. Just because you do not like what the rules say, does not mean you can call people who want to play by the rules Jackasses.