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I'd keep the Adrenal glands on your Tervigon, primarily because any Termigants you spawn can charge that same turn. You may need to leave a trail of them back to momma if you want the full threat radius (6" + base width + 12" move-and-assault), but the difference between 10 Furiously Charging Poisoned FNP 'gants and 10 Poisoned FNP 'gants is nontrivial.

Janthkin wrote:I'd keep the Adrenal glands on your Tervigon, primarily because any Termigants you spawn can charge that same turn. You may need to leave a trail of them back to momma if you want the full threat radius (6" + base width + 12" move-and-assault), but the difference between 10 Furiously Charging Poisoned FNP 'gants and 10 Poisoned FNP 'gants is nontrivial.

Agreed. FC gives you the reroll to wounds against T4 and below on the turn you charge. Plus, I5 lets you attack before virtually every other basic trooper in the game.

I'd keep the Adrenal glands on your Tervigon, primarily because any Termigants you spawn can charge that same turn. You may need to leave a trail of them back to momma if you want the full threat radius (6" + base width + 12" move-and-assault), but the difference between 10 Furiously Charging Poisoned FNP 'gants and 10 Poisoned FNP 'gants is nontrivial.

Probably true. My thought has been getting the charge off with gaunts without fleet will be iffy, but I am underestimating them I am sure.

However my reading of the rule for spawning -- you would not be able to add the base as far as threat distance. They used a different wording then most rules and it sure seems to me that the entire base of all the models has to be in 6". It uses 'no more then 6" ', not within 6"

I think that is debateable. If the edge of your base is 6" from the tervigon, then the base can still be argued to be 6" away.

As far as GW use of "within", they don't know what the term means . "Within" means to be inside of. However, all the diagrams in the BRB show models outside of and touching the prescribed distance. Therefore to GW, "within" means placing the model no more than "x" inches away.

I think the best "precedent" to GW's version of "within" is the Vehicle Disembarkation rules.

Besides, you still have a 12" threat radius, and the Tervigon can always run to keep within the buffing distance if necessary. I think it's better though to just have a massive screen of Gaunts and for your opponents to charge you. Hormagaunt and Genestealers are our assault troops, they are better at it, Termagaunts are there to screen enemy assaulters and shooters and to sit on objectives.

Exactly, and in the diagram, one of the models is outside of yet touching the 2" prescribed distance. Maybe someone could post the Tervigon language in YMDC.

Yet Tervigon rules doesn't say within like embarking, it says 'not more then 6"'. If the base is just touching 6", then some of it is more then 6" from the Tervigon and would break the letter of the rule. Agree though that is a small thing as far as threat radius, I just thought it was worth mentioning.

Sorry for the derailment.

There are two sides of this though.

Yes, in order to be placed when you are spawned you have to be within 6" for all of the models. However for the Tervigon to buff the unit, the unit has to really only have one model within 6". Plus they can move and assault as normal once they are spawned. So if you are desperate to assault something, you could spawn the Termagaunts, move them, run the Tervigon, and assault in such a way where you can retain the bonus. It will rarely come up , but it's important to know your tools.

For the 20+ years I’ve been playing GW games, whenever dealing with measuring distances, “within” has always been used in the sense of “within arm’s reach” not “within my belly”.

However, 5th edition was the first time that they explicitly spelled this out right at the front of the book with a diagram and everything so no one can be confused. Winterman, you’re really not correct about this. Check the front of the rulebook. Page 2, IIRC?

For the 20+ years I’ve been playing GW games, whenever dealing with measuring distances, “within” has always been used in the sense of “within arm’s reach” not “within my belly”.

Except the rule I am discussing does not say within. I agree that anything mentioning within would mean just that, not wholly within but atleast some part of the base within 6".

I am, not talking about the boost of powers (counter charge etc) -- I am talking about the spawning of termagants.

To quote the rule

Place a new unit of Termagants such that no model is more then 6" from the Tervigon

It does not say within 6".

winterman wrote:

For the 20+ years I’ve been playing GW games, whenever dealing with measuring distances, “within” has always been used in the sense of “within arm’s reach” not “within my belly”.

Except the rule I am discussing does not say within. I agree that anything mentioning within would mean just that, not wholly within but atleast some part of the base within 6".

I am, not talking about the boost of powers (counter charge etc) -- I am talking about the spawning of termagants.

To quote the rule

Place a new unit of Termagants such that no model is more then 6" from the Tervigon

It does not say within 6".

And if the model's base starts 5.99" away from the Tervigon, it isn't more than 6" away from the Tervigon.

Thanks for the batrep Mahu. Very informative, if a bit doom and gloomy.

If i could play a nid army at a tournament, and name one out of 16 codexes i wouldn't have to play against, it'd be space wolves.... but on a lighter note, a space wolf player that takes more than one jaws is going to have a particularly useless power in almost all of his games. So he has stacked himself really hard in hoping he'll face demons, nids or foot orks. My IG army thinks jaws is funny. Against IG, jaws of the world wolf is the Dane Cook of psychic powers...

Ok, now, what would I do if I faced a guy who had a jaws priest in a rhino in pitched battle or spearhead. Well, for one, I would make sure that as long as i still had table, I would keep my initiative 1 MCs 31" away from him. I would push out with my gants (keeping a trailing tail of gants within 6" of my tervies) and push out with my hive guard. so the rhino either moves 6 and uses jaws on something else, or it moves 12" and pops smoke. if it does that, i get one turn to see if i can kill a smoked rhino with 6 hive guard and two t-fexes. then he gets out, tries one jaws, then dies next turn. I am prepared for the likelihood of his jaws accounting for one of my MCs and some various little guys.

Now does he have a drop pod? That is a more serious problem for tyranids. In fact, space marines of all types become more problematic for the nids when they deploy unconventionally. Drop pods have lost favor because of epople reserving against them, but a proper drop pod list complete with "fake pods" can counter the reserve trick, and can threaten nid charge screens from multiple extreme angles, ironclads in particular have been a problem for me, because my gants no matter how super can't get the job done against them. So i have to wade in with adrenal gland tervigons and hope for some luck. this would go the same with jaws coming down from a drop pod. I could immediately charge the contents, but if the contents were built for anti-horde (mark of wulfen, banner, flamer, wolf guard with a good weapon) then I might not even win that charge.

Everyone has a bad matchup. i'm ok with space wolves, because at least they have to have a very specific type of build to really threaten me. If they don't have a land raider based assault, or a big twc component, and they want to try to outshoot you, or play a mid-field game, they are going to get out-midfielded I should think.

If they have a more aggressive gameplan, with drop pods or land raiders or gangs of thunderwolves, I'll be more defensive, and more likely on the ropes, especially if that comes in supported by jaws. Space marine players need to stop allowing their opponents to dictate the pace of the game, the more aggressive they play, the harder of a time I have with both nids and IG. The difficulty of playing aggressively and forcing your opponent to react to you is higher than just taking "answer" units and waiting for your turn. But I'm seeing a lot of space wolf players trying that, too many long fangs, too many rhinos, too many bolters... I'm not afraid of SW armies that give me time like that.

Just like nids, space wolves have to be balanced, because they don't know who they are fighting. If your metagame is thick with nids, or your space wolf opponent has a chip on his shoulder about nids, then what are you gonna do, just take the loss with a smile.

And if the model's base starts 5.99" away from the Tervigon, it isn't more than 6" away from the Tervigon.

Ya know, you guys are probably right. I was thinking this was much like deployment but it is slightly different (more then vs not more then) and I glossed over the first part of the measuring rules on page 3 and focused on the 2nd part regarding within. Anyways I relent Back to the important stuff.

Against IG, jaws of the world wolf is the Dane Cook of psychic powers...

:lol:
It is true. The few SW players I know don't bother with it, even knowing I am showing up with carnifexes. Granted they run only one RP, multiples it would make sense to take it once.

winterman wrote:It is true. The few SW players I know don't bother with it, even knowing I am showing up with carnifexes. Granted they run only one RP, multiples it would make sense to take it once.

I mean seriously, you look at the list of powers, and look at mech army popularity, then realize if something isn't mech, its horde... how do you not take murderous hurricane and living lightning on your first RP. And how do you not take the mounted wolf lord? And then after that, how much army are you even going to have if you spend 400+ points on HQs?

This would be my worst case scenario against SW

wolf lord thunder hammer storm shield thunderwolf mount wolf tooth necklace warrior born

rune priest murderous hurricane living lightning beast slayer

rune priest murderous hurricane jaws of the world wolf

I don't have my book handy, what does this run... 480ish?

Since the rune weapon ruling came down and you only have one shot at dispelling, it seems less and less likely that people are spamming rune priests. And if they are, they are lining up with 1200 points of army... Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not thinking I'll be facing multiple jaws armies unless its in my first game of a tourney.

Thanks for the batrep Mahu. Very informative, if a bit doom and gloomy.

Thanks, like I said, I am trying to adapt to different armies.

Ok, now, what would I do if I faced a guy who had a jaws priest in a rhino in pitched battle or spearhead. Well, for one, I would make sure that as long as i still had table, I would keep my initiative 1 MCs 31" away from him. I would push out with my gants (keeping a trailing tail of gants within 6" of my tervies) and push out with my hive guard. so the rhino either moves 6 and uses jaws on something else, or it moves 12" and pops smoke. if it does that, i get one turn to see if i can kill a smoked rhino with 6 hive guard and two t-fexes. then he gets out, tries one jaws, then dies next turn. I am prepared for the likelihood of his jaws accounting for one of my MCs and some various little guys.

That's fine in theory, but in my games against him, it's easy to underestimate how much he can outshout nidz from a distance. He has a Rune Priest w/ Hurricane and Lightning in a Land Raider, that wants to hit your lines anyway, so it is "easy" for him to be shutting down you getting FNP on your shooty units, and he has good target priority to take down one bug per shooting phase. It's the reason I resorted to fielding 2+ save creatures, even at their cost, I dramatically reduce the amount of damage my army can take from 10 to 12 missile launchers plus other things.

I found the best way to address his army and Space Wolves in general is that you have to close the distance and keep pressure on them. If you can make the game a "break-out" mission for them, that gives you the majority of the field to grab objectives. The only thing I am trying to overcome is preventing the amount of losses it takes to do that. If I had Devourers on my Carnifexes this game, I may have had the Long Fangs run off the table, and been able to charge the Land Raiders. Subtle things like that is what I am finding.

Now does he have a drop pod? That is a more serious problem for tyranids. In fact, space marines of all types become more problematic for the nids when they deploy unconventionally. Drop pods have lost favor because of epople reserving against them, but a proper drop pod list complete with "fake pods" can counter the reserve trick, and can threaten nid charge screens from multiple extreme angles, ironclads in particular have been a problem for me, because my gants no matter how super can't get the job done against them. So i have to wade in with adrenal gland tervigons and hope for some luck. this would go the same with jaws coming down from a drop pod. I could immediately charge the contents, but if the contents were built for anti-horde (mark of wulfen, banner, flamer, wolf guard with a good weapon) then I might not even win that charge.

Hardly anybody plays Drop Pods around here, Drop Pod assault is too easy to counter. His Space Wolves list is all about adaptability, he runs Logan because suddenly he has scoring Terminators and he can swiss army knife their USRs with Logan. I would argue Logan is better then a Cav Wolf Lord because of his abilities and what he brings to a list.

Everyone has a bad matchup. i'm ok with space wolves, because at least they have to have a very specific type of build to really threaten me. If they don't have a land raider based assault, or a big twc component, and they want to try to outshoot you, or play a mid-field game, they are going to get out-midfielded I should think.

My opponent didn't change his list at all from the last RTT which took place well before we had solid Tyranid Rumors. Space Wolves don't have to build specifically to fight Tyranids, things that are good in a Space Wolf list are naturally good against the Nids.

If they have a more aggressive gameplan, with drop pods or land raiders or gangs of thunderwolves, I'll be more defensive, and more likely on the ropes, especially if that comes in supported by jaws. Space marine players need to stop allowing their opponents to dictate the pace of the game, the more aggressive they play, the harder of a time I have with both nids and IG. The difficulty of playing aggressively and forcing your opponent to react to you is higher than just taking "answer" units and waiting for your turn. But I'm seeing a lot of space wolf players trying that, too many long fangs, too many rhinos, too many bolters... I'm not afraid of SW armies that give me time like that.

I wish my Space Wolf opponent played more aggressively, that way I can counter assault and break combats. He has nothing really that can stand up to the amount of Guants and Genestealers I have in assault, and most SW players won't. But having the flexibility to stand back and shoot is vital to all Marine armies, just the Wolves have better assault options.

Just like nids, space wolves have to be balanced, because they don't know who they are fighting. If your metagame is thick with nids, or your space wolf opponent has a chip on his shoulder about nids, then what are you gonna do, just take the loss with a smile.

I am sure that will happen, but like I said, Space Wolves don't have to tailor to Nids to be a very strong opponent to them.

Since the rune weapon ruling came down and you only have one shot at dispelling, it seems less and less likely that people are spamming rune priests. And if they are, they are lining up with 1200 points of army... Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not thinking I'll be facing multiple jaws armies unless its in my first game of a tourney.

You are right, you won't. But one is enough to seriously mess up the Nidz. Don't forget the crap ton of other shooting they have, it's a distinct advantage to be able to take out one of your biggest target with one power, and shoot up the next one, in a single shooting phase.

Mahu wrote:That's fine in theory, but in my games against him, it's easy to underestimate how much he can outshout nidz from a distance. He has a Rune Priest w/ Hurricane and Lightning in a Land Raider, that wants to hit your lines anyway, so it is "easy" for him to be shutting down you getting FNP on your shooty units, and he has good target priority to take down one bug per shooting phase. It's the reason I resorted to fielding 2+ save creatures, even at their cost, I dramatically reduce the amount of damage my army can take from 10 to 12 missile launchers plus other things.

Outshoot your nids... Not mine. Missiles don't scratch t-fexes, or FNP tervigons. The land raider rune priest vexes me. I don't really get how that is a problem at all. So he uses it to cut 50% of your catalysts, but he has to get out to jaws you? He gets out once, and is instantly swamped by 30 termagants. Thats it for jaws. Why weren't you in position to tarpit him the second his toe touched dirt?

Mahu wrote:I found the best way to address his army and Space Wolves in general is that you have to close the distance and keep pressure on them. If you can make the game a "break-out" mission for them, that gives you the majority of the field to grab objectives. The only thing I am trying to overcome is preventing the amount of losses it takes to do that. If I had Devourers on my Carnifexes this game, I may have had the Long Fangs run off the table, and been able to charge the Land Raiders. Subtle things like that is what I am finding.

Yeah that is what you need to do, because you've got 27 genestealers, only one t-fex and no hive guard. A list with a more mid-field shooting game will still press up on a space wolf player, but doesn't have to rush headlong into their traps, because the clock is on them, not you.

Mahu wrote:Hardly anybody plays Drop Pods around here, Drop Pod assault is too easy to counter. His Space Wolves list is all about adaptability, he runs Logan because suddenly he has scoring Terminators and he can swiss army knife their USRs with Logan. I would argue Logan is better then a Cav Wolf Lord because of his abilities and what he brings to a list.

I don't believe it is. Loading up a bunch of alpha strike drop pods with expensive units is easy to counter, but every single drop pod list I make has as many empty drop pods as it does full ones. You reserve out on me? Thanks for giving me the table position... my good pods are still in reserve. Logan would be better than a cav lord... if he was in a drop pod filled with multi-melta long fangs. Also, he may be better in a land raider version of space wolves, because you'd have that raider full of wolf guard.... but he isn't any less expensive... so my point about cost still stands.

Mahu wrote:My opponent didn't change his list at all from the last RTT which took place well before we had solid Tyranid Rumors. Space Wolves don't have to build specifically to fight Tyranids, things that are good in a Space Wolf list are naturally good against the Nids.

I didn't imply that he did. How do i say this without sounding like a dick... I don't believe in your list. One zoanthrope unit and one t-fex are not nearly enough anti-vehicle to fight anyone with a transport option. Genestealers have failed me, especially against counter-attacking space wolves, you just need tanks to get opened up before any assault elemnt arrives. And you need to be able to threaten land raiders so that they are forced to make their aggressive move early, if they get to just float around and dump out hurricane bolter rounds and assault cannon shots all game, you are gonna be out of gants to screen your MCs with.

Mahu wrote:I wish my Space Wolf opponent played more aggressively, that way I can counter assault and break combats. He has nothing really that can stand up to the amount of Guants and Genestealers I have in assault, and most SW players won't. But having the flexibility to stand back and shoot is vital to all Marine armies, just the Wolves have better assault options.

Yeah, you can't let space marines of any variety take their time and stand back and shoot you. That just means that your shooting is so light that this normally mid-field army is able to take it easy and actually gunline you. Either out-gunline them with a sticky horde screen, MAKE them attempt to assault your big bugs in order to shut you down, or go completely aggro, run zoanthropes in multiples, run headlong at them, take real CC monsters that aren't troops choices and put the pressure on them.

Mahu wrote:I am sure that will happen, but like I said, Space Wolves don't have to tailor to Nids to be a very strong opponent to them.

Agreed here. grey hunters are one of the better troops hoices to match up against supergants... jaws may slip in to lists and it truly is a broken power against nids, long fangs with rune weapon support can kill tervigons well (when not screened by t-fexes) and thunderwolf cavalry properly played and equipped can out-cc almost all of our serious CC contenders.

Mahu wrote:You are right, you won't. But one is enough to seriously mess up the Nidz. Don't forget the crap ton of other shooting they have, it's a distinct advantage to be able to take out one of your biggest target with one power, and shoot up the next one, in a single shooting phase.

Yeah, but that why you and me both have been taking MCs with 2+ saves. Because they hand out missile launchers like party favors in that book. Feel no pain can be cast from outside of rune weapon range for a couple of turns, and is only shut down 50% of the time in practice anyway. Rune priests that aren't in land raiders will be targeted as a priority and will be walking almost immediately, and runepriests in land raiders have to get out to use their power, and thus become one use items.

I'm not saying a good space wolf player doesn't give a good nid player a challenge, but i really just take your batrep more as evidence that nids either have to be shootier than marines (like my lists have proved to be, barring multiple jaws, which I can do nothing against) or just build a deathstar around a catalysted swarmlord and shove it down their throats.

Genestealers have failed me, especially against counter-attacking space wolves

Really I've found them to be quite useful when given Perferred enemy. With the brood lord there to take wounds and cast powers, a small 5 man brood between the Tervagon and a spawned gant screen. I've found the elite stealers good for a quick assault, and with T5 to counter counter-assault. I've always been able to take out a grey hunter unit or some long fangs who got to close to the terrain they are in. I still think that a flying Nid army with strong shooting could out manouver small SW armies. Try adding some fliers or spore mining the mid field.

Got 3 more games in on Saturday, and though my list still needs a little work, I think I am gaining a better understanding on how to run Tyranids in a Competitive environment.

Outshoot your nids... Not mine. Missiles don't scratch t-fexes, or FNP tervigons. The land raider rune priest vexes me. I don't really get how that is a problem at all. So he uses it to cut 50% of your catalysts, but he has to get out to jaws you? He gets out once, and is instantly swamped by 30 termagants. Thats it for jaws. Why weren't you in position to tarpit him the second his toe touched dirt?

Well, it is all target priority on his side. He gets his Jaws off first then shoots you.

So when a +2 save creature gets swallowed, he easily can direct his fire power at easier targets. I played him again this weekend with a slightly different list, and Jaws accounted for the Tyrannofex, a Spore Pod, and a Carnifex before I was able to shut him down and kill him. I have just resigned myself to the fact that I am going to loose 2 MCs to Jaws a game.

When the Land Raider Rune Priest, having a forward moving Runic Weapon is good enough. In my opponent particular build, that Rune Priest doesn't have Jaws. But if he did, he can easily get out before the Raider moves and provide "long range" Jaws to kill your Tervigon, and shoot up the Gaunt Screen with his firepower. Next turn he tank shocks in and the game is over. The only answer I have found is using pods to pull off his focus from my front lines. I absolutely love the Carnifex with Bioplasma and MC Devourers, the Carnifex was able to make one unit of Fangs just run off the table.

Yeah that is what you need to do, because you've got 27 genestealers, only one t-fex and no hive guard. A list with a more mid-field shooting game will still press up on a space wolf player, but doesn't have to rush headlong into their traps, because the clock is on them, not you.

I agree, next on my "to buy" list is three Hive Guard.

I don't believe it is. Loading up a bunch of alpha strike drop pods with expensive units is easy to counter, but every single drop pod list I make has as many empty drop pods as it does full ones. You reserve out on me? Thanks for giving me the table position... my good pods are still in reserve. Logan would be better than a cav lord... if he was in a drop pod filled with multi-melta long fangs. Also, he may be better in a land raider version of space wolves, because you'd have that raider full of wolf guard.... but he isn't any less expensive... so my point about cost still stands.

Logan is better then a Cav Lord because he gives the Space Wolves access to a hammer unit that also scores. He also provides great utility to that unit with the ability to give them preferred enemy and/or tank hunters. I am not saying that the Cav lord is bad, or even a non-competitive choice. What I am saying is that that when you build a Space Wolf list around the synergies that Logan provides, you can create some of the higher end competitive builds.

I didn't imply that he did. How do i say this without sounding like a dick... I don't believe in your list. One zoanthrope unit and one t-fex are not nearly enough anti-vehicle to fight anyone with a transport option. Genestealers have failed me, especially against counter-attacking space wolves, you just need tanks to get opened up before any assault elemnt arrives. And you need to be able to threaten land raiders so that they are forced to make their aggressive move early, if they get to just float around and dump out hurricane bolter rounds and assault cannon shots all game, you are gonna be out of gants to screen your MCs with.

Don't worry, I don't believe in my list either, I am still testing things out to see how they work.

Carnifexes are my primary anti-light transport option. I played and won against a SOB army that had a hefty amount of Immolators, simply by FNPing my gaunts, and dropping Carnifexes to hit rear and side armor. That is why I take Bioplasma, because I can penetrate with it.

On the subject of Genestealers, I scaled back to two units of 9 and realized to forget outflanking with them. There are times to do it, but I really like having them as a counter assault unit behind my Gaunt screen. Especially when I have an Ancient Adversary Hive Tyrant floating around. Why I prefer the standard Hive Tyrant to the Swarmlord is that I can put a bunch of units like Gaunts in Tervigon range, Poisoned Hormagaunts, and Genestealers on those "deathstar" units amd swamp them with just sheer weight of numbers. Oh you have Blood Crushers or Thunderwolf Cav, here take 12 rending wounds and about 20 standard wounds, you enjoy that. I fear without some Genestealers in my lines, I don't have the ability to bypass armor that I need to break combats.

Hormagaunst have also helped a lot as a counter assault unit, I really like them.

Yeah, you can't let space marines of any variety take their time and stand back and shoot you. That just means that your shooting is so light that this normally mid-field army is able to take it easy and actually gunline you. Either out-gunline them with a sticky horde screen, MAKE them attempt to assault your big bugs in order to shut you down, or go completely aggro, run zoanthropes in multiples, run headlong at them, take real CC monsters that aren't troops choices and put the pressure on them.

Objective match up favor me, especially "my castle your castle" as I have dropping thing to contest his stuff, and I have enough assault to go through his army to get to an objective.

Yeah, but that why you and me both have been taking MCs with 2+ saves. Because they hand out missile launchers like party favors in that book. Feel no pain can be cast from outside of rune weapon range for a couple of turns, and is only shut down 50% of the time in practice anyway. Rune priests that aren't in land raiders will be targeted as a priority and will be walking almost immediately, and runepriests in land raiders have to get out to use their power, and thus become one use items.

I Agree. Rune Priests are extremely flexible to hide and walk around, they can be out of Shadow range and easily target MCs with impunity. Kill the Rhino one is in, he hops over to the Long Fangs and casts the power, he hops out of a Land Raider and targets you, and the other unit inside charges your lines. The guy is only 100 points, they can and will sacrifice themselves to take out a MC that costs close to or more then twice thier own cost, and even though "making your points back" is an antiquated theory in a game of Kill Points and objectives, when we are talking about creatures that provide a crucial symmetry to an army and has a reasonable chance of living past turn two against every other army, the effects of Jaws cannot be overstated, and we have to be prepared to play with no mistakes against a good Space Wolves player. I am not saying it's impossible, it's just an uphill battle 9 times out of 10.