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Hulksmash wrote:@Kesher

Both the Broadside Bash and the SoCal Slaughters (either the 40k or Fantasy) both require lists about 1 week early as they do primary match-ups for the tourney based on comp and both are Indy GT's of multiple year standings. Though judged comp doesn't add into overall it still makes it much easier for them to set the first 2 rounds up to deal with issues. I'm pretty sure there are more out here that require it but I haven't attended any others recently. So issue 4 is kinda moot. Though I do believe in transparency overall.

Yeah i'm not too familiar with the west coast stuffs, thanks for the heads up.

@kesher: I understand what you are saying but you weren't at the event and no matter which way the ball falls your info was second hand and the people may (and it sound slike it )not been thrilled. Thats fine. Guys send him your feedback as at this moment alll your doing is argueing for no real reason, and which ever way youcut it no one wins when you argue on the internet.

@Beerfart: same as the abouve, hey I would love to hear your gripes and so would mike. He is a solid guy just do as he asked and call him I garuntee he is extemely receptive no matter if you blast him or praise he will listen and take your concerns to heart and look over it all. These events only get better by the players not being affraid to leave feedback.

I'll just toss my 2 cents in for whatever they're worth. I've known Mike for...14ish years and I've been around Showcase Comics ever since it opened in the mall. I worked for Mike for 3 years from 2000 to 2003 and despite not being able to be around as much as I'd like afterwards due to marriage and now a kid I can say that Mike would not rig an event. I know how much time and effort he puts into his shops and beyond that I know that he hates cheating and he hates stealing and if you are accusing him of rigging the event you're accusing him of doing both those things. If you have concerns/criticisms then calling him at the store or emailing him is a faster and more appropriate way of dealing with them rather than accusing him in a public forum.

This much I can guarentee you, every event at Showcase will get progressively better. How many people can say they started a venue where 50 people can play at the same time? There's going to be growing pains as it's a pretty big thing to get started, but Mike learns quickly and will take all valid comments/criticism seriously and act on them.

Rob,

Have a five minute break, I'll address what I can.

Issue 1. uh, no. Never said that. Having or not having 3 heavies is not a set criteria for our scoring.

Comp in general I'm not going to argue over an over, as it never ends. That said, I don't think we gave a double lash oblit list a 14. In fact, I think someone else argued the other way, that we gave the doulbe lash oblit list low comp, compared to NON double lash chaos.

The FAQ was up before lists were due. Several places. Rules were in place before lists were due. Posted several places.

Issue 2: Not sure what "scrawled on paper means". If it means a typed up description of each mission with reference pages in the main rulebook, along with the scoring info at the bottome, and a place for players to fill in their scores, and names, then you have an odd definition of 'scrawled on paper'. You prefer chipped stone tablets? The missions were also posted here on Dakka and changed due to player feedback. Two other points with missions:

-Many people were concerned with how ties on objectives would be scored. Instead of going with what I had down, I let the players vote on how they wanted to score the mission, and went with majority.
-When feedback at the tourney told me mission four still sucked, I came in an hour early to type up and make copies..oh, sorry...scrawled pieces of paper...to hand out with the new mission.

Issue 3: Looking into what happened round 2, where there was a bad matchup. If we screwed up, we screwed up.
Last round, 2 players mentioned they'd played each other before, I mean't to switch the tables. My fault. From what somene else said, they were ok with it, and didn't mind. I spaced and didn't get back to it when other stuff reared up.

Yes, I was shorthanded day 2. One person got called into work at the GW store he works at. It was important and affects every GW store in the country. You'll hear about it soon I'm sure, I can't blame the guy with what crap is going down. The other person frankly had to good a time the night before, and had a 6 hour drive in the afternoon down to VA Beach. I sent him home, and Brian from HQ stepped in to help me fill the gap. Lesson learned. Get 2 more judges than you need. Don't drink so much saturday.

Issue 4: We had comp, can't judge it on the morning of. This is a red herring for "don't have comp". Also do not feel like releasing the missions and then have people adjust their lists to fit the missions.

We will be holding another GT for 40k this year that doesn't have comp. We will still ask for army lists ahead of time, and release the missions after that.


When you have people coming to your event from up and down the east coast, with some as far away as Florida and Conn, fighting snow etc you really gotta be fair with everything. The age of the internets is here and things will be said both positive and negative. Not only is your rep on the line, but the rep of your store, and your fledgling gaming club offshoot.

Noted. Knew it a long time ago. Doing the best I can. I make mistakes, or mistakes are made at my event. Either way it opens you up for accusations of cheating, favoring your buddies, and anything else people bravely want to accuse you of. I expect it. It's the internet.

Fledgling gaming club offshoot? I'm not a member of Biggunz-NE, but they work with me to run events, and that's not a description I'd ever use. I think you better take a hard look before you throw crap. They work very hard to put on events, work with younger gamers, and promote the hobby. The club is a couple of years old, and has made 500 pieces of scenery, run a dozen events last year, and set up to help me run 2 dozen more. They went with me to Games Day last year, took home best LOTR table, and best table over all, and kicked GW's 'big games' all over the place. They went up to the NEWCC this year and took first, just barely beating out the Warmongers.

They are a hard working bunch of great guys. You want to throw stuff at me, go ahead. But don't damn them with faint praise. They do a hell of a lot more than the majority of clubs.

Empchild wrote:@kesher: I understand what you are saying but you weren't at the event and no matter which way the ball falls your info was second hand and the people may (and it sound slike it )not been thrilled. Thats fine. Guys send him your feedback as at this moment alll your doing is argueing for no real reason, and which ever way youcut it no one wins when you argue on the internet.

I agree I was not there. If I was incorrect about any issue feel free to respond in kind with the actual details.

As far as feedback goes I think open forum format is always the best as it brings more ideas together in once place for debate. I for one as a successful tourney regular would love the chance to help debate a great universal tourney system.

I did not argue at all. I presented the facts as provided to me by multiple impartial sources and how I feel they could be improved upon.

Empchild wrote:
@Beerfart: same as the abouve, hey I would love to hear your gripes and so would mike. He is a solid guy just do as he asked and call him I garuntee he is extemely receptive no matter if you blast him or praise he will listen and take your concerns to heart and look over it all. These events only get better by the players not being affraid to leave feedback.

Is there a reason why the issues cannot be discussed publicly? Can any explanations from tourney organisers not stand up to public scrutiny?

I'm not keen on 'coming out' and calling to ask questions so that I'm recognised and penalised in comp at the next event I decide to attend if I so desire. Mikailia is on these forums enough, but apparently doesnt want to feild any questions to his events' integrity. That itself raises eyebrows if you ask me.

"Call me up and we'll discuss it." Why? So you can know who I am and penalise me in the future if I decide to attend a tournament? Maybe even decide not to allow my entry due to being "sold out" meanwhile sidestepping any issues I care to discuss?

Why not simply explain your comp system on Dakka to publicly vindicate oneself once and for all when questions are raised? Why not explain why the first round comp matchups were grossly out of whack in some situations? No reason to get upset if the event was run fairly and without any favoritism/handicapping.

Why bother with a 1 on 1 phone call where its easy to sidestep issues. Lets put this all out in the open. So I'm anonymous, that doesnt change the fact that there were people that questioned the integrity of the event.

Mike,
I did not personally attack you or the Big Gunz NE club at any point in my post. I'm sorry if you feel that way. I would like to remind everyone that it is impossible to tell the "tone" of internet posts. I stand by what I said, and have provided my specifics, and solutions as I see them.

I will say one piece. I'm a member of a local club TFG/SBF, and I do not wish to see anyone drag the Big-Gunz name around. They are a stand up group of guys, Mike is the shop owner in the area that they game at, and most of them are not even local to his location.

To be honest, Philly is blessed to have several major clubs in the area: Warmongers, Big-Gunz, Johnsons, TFG/SBF, and several others. We all appreciate Mike and his shop. Facts are facts. Clubs tend to have more tournment gamers, we tend to test game vs each other, theory hammer.

Thanks to Mike, there is a lot of open club communication in how to run our own events, there are several Indy GT's in the area, and talk of opening up even more. I'm heading to his event this weekend, and want to contribute, not just show up and game. I'm hoping to donate to his location food and stuff to make his life easier. That's what clubs bring, comradery, not just a "we want to win" mentality.

The reason we suggest talking 1:1 with him, is he's excited about gamers and likes to here from us: the gamers. He will ask your thoughts about the game 40k, fantasy, lord of the rings, privateer press. He's asking because he's got 1 mind, and wants to here from us to know what is good comp, bad comp, but its easier to talk 1:1 and here you out then have to answer 9-10 posts at at time.

Beerfart~ i'm sorry to hear you had that experience. I think you'd get the answer you want easier by ringing the shop, send an email or pm.

*edit: Original point already made, above.

I agree I was not there. If I was incorrect about any issue feel free to respond in kind with the actual details.

As far as feedback goes I think open forum format is always the best as it brings more ideas together in once place for debate. I for one as a successful tourney regular would love the chance to help debate a great universal tourney system.

I did not argue at all. I presented the facts as provided to me by multiple impartial sources and how I feel they could be improved upon.

Kesher, words like "scrawled" do not convey an impartial tone. Also, it sounds like some of the "facts" you presented are open to dispute/interpretation. I have no interest in the event, as I'm unlikely ever to be on that side of the country, and I was reading your original post as hostile. *shrug*

Beerfart wrote:[Is there a reason why the issues cannot be discussed publicly? Can any explanations from tourney organisers not stand up to public scrutiny?

As this is a public forum, I don't see why any issues cannot or should not be discussed. It happens with pretty much every event held on the GT circuit. And it should be discussed when it is heavily advertized on Dakka, and Dakka members attended.

Mike, for an event with 50 players, I should have hoped that you would have had more than one other person helping you on day 1 or day 2. If you have a big club like the BigGunzNE helping you with events, why weren't they helping out with the running of the event day of?

When an event hits the 'national stage' so to speak, I think it is in the community's interest to discuss those events. They offer opportunities for improvement, and for events to get stronger. It also allows people to make a more informed decision to travel any distance to attend any event. Events like Adepticon set the bar for tourneys, and while not every one can be as large, tournies can aspire to their approach and communication with attendees.

Cruentus wrote:

Beerfart wrote:[Is there a reason why the issues cannot be discussed publicly? Can any explanations from tourney organisers not stand up to public scrutiny?

As this is a public forum, I don't see why any issues cannot or should not be discussed. It happens with pretty much every event held on the GT circuit. And it should be discussed when it is heavily advertized on Dakka, and Dakka members attended.

Mike, for an event with 50 players, I should have hoped that you would have had more than one other person helping you on day 1 or day 2. If you have a big club like the BigGunzNE helping you with events, why weren't they helping out with the running of the event day of?

When an event hits the 'national stage' so to speak, I think it is in the community's interest to discuss those events. They offer opportunities for improvement, and for events to get stronger. It also allows people to make a more informed decision to travel any distance to attend any event. Events like Adepticon set the bar for tourneys, and while not every one can be as large, tournies can aspire to their approach and communication with attendees.

I'd go with "don't feed the trolls" as a reason. Again, I'm not involved in the event in any way, and don't know any of the people involved. But Beerfart's posts are presented in a decidedly aggressive manner (the above-quoted post is demonstrative), and I can't blame mikhaila for not wishing to get involved in arguments with anonymous people, who may or may not have attended the event.

all I am going to say any further is he has explained himself multiple times over with posting the breakdown. If you are "afraid" of calling well that is sad in my eyes as you don't have to name yourself. I have only known him for a few months and all by email and phone and he has been one of the most helpfull and understanding people I have meet. Mike is incredably receptive as stated and won't hold your opinons against you. He wants to grow the tourney scene and is in my opinon doing a damn good job at it. That said is were I will leave at.

It's kind of wierd that comp was used for pairings but then not used at all. A friend of mine had a 10 and played a 1 and then a 2 in the first two rounds. That's kind of weird.

Janthkin wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

Beerfart wrote:[Is there a reason why the issues cannot be discussed publicly? Can any explanations from tourney organisers not stand up to public scrutiny?

As this is a public forum, I don't see why any issues cannot or should not be discussed. It happens with pretty much every event held on the GT circuit. And it should be discussed when it is heavily advertized on Dakka, and Dakka members attended.

Mike, for an event with 50 players, I should have hoped that you would have had more than one other person helping you on day 1 or day 2. If you have a big club like the BigGunzNE helping you with events, why weren't they helping out with the running of the event day of?

When an event hits the 'national stage' so to speak, I think it is in the community's interest to discuss those events. They offer opportunities for improvement, and for events to get stronger. It also allows people to make a more informed decision to travel any distance to attend any event. Events like Adepticon set the bar for tourneys, and while not every one can be as large, tournies can aspire to their approach and communication with attendees.

I'd go with "don't feed the trolls" as a reason. Again, I'm not involved in the event in any way, and don't know any of the people involved. But Beerfart's posts are presented in a decidedly aggressive manner (the above-quoted post is demonstrative), and I can't blame mikhaila for not wishing to get involved in arguments with anonymous people, who may or may not have attended the event.

...and who's the troll? Me? Why? Because I asked about the integrity of an event? Please.

I've simply asked about a couple of issues, and someone called me a Troll. Weird how that works out.

Beerfart wrote:...and who's the troll? Me? Why? Because I asked about the integrity of an event? Please.

I've simply asked about a couple of issues, and someone called me a Troll. Weird how that works out.

I'm waiting on some paperwork, so I've got a moment. Let's run through your phrasing a little, shall we?

Beerfart wrote:The "composition" element and early matchup guidelines seem like an easy way to throw in some shenanigans in favor of the "home team" guys. Not accusing, but strange for a non-sportsmanship tournament.

Nothing but eyebrows raised all weekend concerning comp issues and matchups. Many dissatisfied tournament commandos concerning initial matchups. Why? Secretive comp scores and no point tallies posted. What's the big secret with tournament point tallies? Oh yea, maybe we wanna set particular people up.

Perhaps I was at this one and know exactly what I'm talking about....perhaps.

Is there a reason why the issues cannot be discussed publicly? Can any explanations from tourney organisers not stand up to public scrutiny?

I'm not keen on 'coming out' and calling to ask questions so that I'm recognised and penalised in comp at the next event I decide to attend if I so desire. Mikailia is on these forums enough, but apparently doesnt want to feild any questions to his events' integrity. That itself raises eyebrows if you ask me.

"Call me up and we'll discuss it." Why? So you can know who I am and penalise me in the future if I decide to attend a tournament? Maybe even decide not to allow my entry due to being "sold out" meanwhile sidestepping any issues I care to discuss?

Why not simply explain your comp system on Dakka to publicly vindicate oneself once and for all when questions are raised? Why not explain why the first round comp matchups were grossly out of whack in some situations? No reason to get upset if the event was run fairly and without any favoritism/handicapping.

Why bother with a 1 on 1 phone call where its easy to sidestep issues. Lets put this all out in the open. So I'm anonymous, that doesnt change the fact that there were people that questioned the integrity of the event.

There are ways to open a dialogue with an event organizer that do not require challenging their integrity in every post you make. There are ways to ask questions that don't require argumentative phrasing.

I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kesher

Both the Broadside Bash and the SoCal Slaughters (either the 40k or Fantasy) both require lists about 1 week early as they do primary match-ups for the tourney based on comp and both are Indy GT's of multiple year standings. Though judged comp doesn't add into overall it still makes it much easier for them to set the first 2 rounds up to deal with issues. I'm pretty sure there are more out here that require it but I haven't attended any others recently. So issue 4 is kinda moot. Though I do believe in transparency overall.

I went to the Necro twice and they paired people up by Comp. It was poorly done just like at this event. It's very easy for people who run an event who usually aren't 100% current on the current power levels to judge lists incorrectly. When you add in that this is still subjective and prone to discrimination by the judges this is unfair. For example Lash Oblits is no big deal with all the Psychic Defense and shooting out there so why should it be penalized? And who knows if it actually makes it any harder for any of those big name lists to win? If they fought the easier lists in the first few rounds they would still be facing off against other big name lists that had did well. I just see any point in doing this.

Transparency is key, it makes people happy. Humans are naturally paranoid so don't keep them in the dark.

Janthkin wrote:

Beerfart wrote:...and who's the troll? Me? Why? Because I asked about the integrity of an event? Please.

I've simply asked about a couple of issues, and someone called me a Troll. Weird how that works out.

I'm waiting on some paperwork, so I've got a moment. Let's run through your phrasing a little, shall we?

Beerfart wrote:The "composition" element and early matchup guidelines seem like an easy way to throw in some shenanigans in favor of the "home team" guys. Not accusing, but strange for a non-sportsmanship tournament.

Nothing but eyebrows raised all weekend concerning comp issues and matchups. Many dissatisfied tournament commandos concerning initial matchups. Why? Secretive comp scores and no point tallies posted. What's the big secret with tournament point tallies? Oh yea, maybe we wanna set particular people up.

Perhaps I was at this one and know exactly what I'm talking about....perhaps.

Is there a reason why the issues cannot be discussed publicly? Can any explanations from tourney organisers not stand up to public scrutiny?

I'm not keen on 'coming out' and calling to ask questions so that I'm recognised and penalised in comp at the next event I decide to attend if I so desire. Mikailia is on these forums enough, but apparently doesnt want to feild any questions to his events' integrity. That itself raises eyebrows if you ask me.

"Call me up and we'll discuss it." Why? So you can know who I am and penalise me in the future if I decide to attend a tournament? Maybe even decide not to allow my entry due to being "sold out" meanwhile sidestepping any issues I care to discuss?

Why not simply explain your comp system on Dakka to publicly vindicate oneself once and for all when questions are raised? Why not explain why the first round comp matchups were grossly out of whack in some situations? No reason to get upset if the event was run fairly and without any favoritism/handicapping.

Why bother with a 1 on 1 phone call where its easy to sidestep issues. Lets put this all out in the open. So I'm anonymous, that doesnt change the fact that there were people that questioned the integrity of the event.

There are ways to open a dialogue with an event organizer that do not require challenging their integrity in every post you make. There are ways to ask questions that don't require argumentative phrasing.

I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

Well, thus far I suppose my "Trolling" hasnt been harsh enough to warrent the attention of the Mods. I am after all, only asking questions about the integrity of said event...as other have done as well.

Calling me a Troll? Well, that sir IS a personal insult and against forum rules.

Dakka has a policy of not being the Internet 40K Court of Appeal.

If people have a complaint, please take it up with the Tournament Organiser, or the local Better Business Bureau or other suitable authority.

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Locking thread.