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Well, if you haven't noticed I'm ignoring the argument. I'll leave it at that and say that I lost to a Nid list tonight.

He beat me by 2 kill points, which isn't that bad considering how many mistakes I made. I don't want to take away any credit from my friend but I had no idea what I was up against and won't be fooled next time I face Nids. It was difficult due to my main source of damage dealing being melee. Lash whips are ****ing anoying but Berzerkers stand the test of time, they did well considering how powerful the MC's are now. The Land Raider was used to stop a giant unit of GS's and a broodlord from flanking me. Kharn killed most of his own berzerkers but somehow managed to survive and take out a hell of alot of bugs ( 10 GS w/Broodlord, carnifex, pod ).

The one thing that is going to exit my list is termicide, its was only the 3rd time I've tried it out and though it has worked at times I'm going to put the points somewhere else. I also may suck it up and replace one pred with 2 - 3 obliterators or a defiler. I really missed having the option of a template, any template.

To sum it up everything but the termicide did real well and the only reason I lost was me. The land raider will probably go as the terminators go. I don't want it taking a heavy slot and can't find the points right now to make a terminator squad to go in it. So with putting Kharn in a rhino and upgrading one pred to LC spoons that gives me 385 points to spend....

If you remove the landraider and consolidate termis you can bring in Abaddon, deep strike with termis. combi meltas and a couple of heavy flamers.

You think Kharne is good, then note that Abaddon is better. It has little coherent theme but it is fun for you and fearsome for the other guy.

Good characters make for good games.

OTG.

Unlucky in the game Milk, I expected you to whoop him, but I guess he had the element of surprise (with a new army and all!)...

I still think you should keep the landraider - but thats a different story/long argument - but I'll try to help your list if you insist on dropping it!

I think that if you are putting Kharn in a Rhino then I would consider getting another zerker squad in Rhino, this will provide more troops and CC capability and compensate for the armour saturation lost by losing the Land Raider. With the Lascannon pred's I'd say that your sorted for long range anti-armour but I'd still advise some melta's, you may find, with 40 bezerkers, that you dont really need too much more (if any) anti-infantry. If I were you I'd consider some chosen, with up to 5 melta's in a squad these guys are good!

The problem with chosen however, unlike obliterators or termicide is that they would have to advance rather than 'appear'. You may consider dropping a predator for a couple of oblit's who can provide hard hitting flexibility. However, with only 2 predators you may then find yourself lacking long range anti-tank! It's tricky trying to find the balance now...

OK, so Ill try to sum up - my recommended - possibilities as follows:

- extra bezerker squad - 8x Zerkers, champ w/ powerfist - rhino - 243pts - leaves 142pts. extra troop choice, armour saturation and CC goodness. however, pricey...

- replace predator with 2x olbiterators - 20pts - leaves 265pts - loses long range anti-tank and target saturation but provides hard-hitting flexibility

- chosen w/ meltas - 6x chosen - 3x melta - rhino - 173pts each - leaves 212pts - adds melta's (anti-tank would therefore be covered) and armour saturation, however I'd recommend 2 and they can be 'stopped' before they reach target. Also, without IoK so fluff is debatable.

- swap Kharn for 2x Daemon Princes - 2x Daemon Prince w/ wings and wind of chaos - 135pts - leaves 150pts - adds anti-tank, anti-meq + anti-infantry, templates and armour saturation, however means dropping kharne, big change from your list and fluff's non-existent!

- larger terminator squad(s)

- raptors w/ melta's, champ and IoK

- CCW dreads


Thats all that springs to mind, I'd take them into account, but in contrast to OTG, I wouldnt recommend Abbadon, he's crazy expensive, loses in fluff and doesnt compensate for the anti-tank...

Good Luck!

I'm disappointed to see this thread get so angsty. One of the things I love about Dakka is the help everyone seems to be willing to provide.

My suggestion, is give your opinion and leave it at that. If someone offers a different opinion, let it be. Let's allow the people asking the questions to make a decision on their own, or try both options and report back.

Well, I played IG this afternoon and tabled him. The catch though is that I really changed my build.

I'll post the new one in place of the old. Its not as fluffy but wow was it good. I find it so hard to have balance doing a Chaos army as one God. It saddens me, I was so determinded to show up with a pure Khorne army.

New build will be posted now, if any of the guys who have been following this want to know how it went let me know.

Gratz on the win Milk.

One-god (aka "themed) armies, are never used for competitive games. If GW was wise, they would build in advantages to running a one-God army ("you may take 1 Elite unit with max wargear at no cost", for example), but since they don't, we simply use them for friendly games. BTW, running CSM vs CSM, each themed, is a lot of fun, so if you can find a friend to joust with.

The last codex had some great mono-god builds. But i suppose we cant live in the past.

Interestingly enough, the largest ammount mono-god builds that are seen in friendly games are Khorne builds. The occasional tzeentch build, but imo Khorne makes the best mono-god build able.

I have Nurgle (Typhus), Khorne (Kharn), Tzeentch (Ahriman), and Slaanesh (Lucius) army lists worked out, but haven't had a chance to try them all out yet.

Funny!

The whole point of the predators, was the 'I don't like obliterators" line. But in game experience lead back back back to the simple fact that obliterators are much more useful and flexible than predators, and that is why they are the standard choice for the heavy slots of nearly all the CSM players. True we dont like to be predictable, but this is what happens when the rules provide a clear advantage for one particular unit type ina slot.....it becomes the must have unit......

OTG.

Orc Town Grot wrote:Funny!

The whole point of the predators, was the 'I don't like obliterators" line. But in game experience lead back back back to the simple fact that obliterators are much more useful and flexible than predators, and that is why they are the standard choice for the heavy slots of nearly all the CSM players. True we dont like to be predictable, but this is what happens when the rules provide a clear advantage for one particular unit type ina slot.....it becomes the must have unit......

OTG.

Popular =/= Best. The fact is, Obliterators are easy to use while being effective, and in general the mass population is going to cling to the easiest but still effective units. That, on top of the fact that we have topics on the internet screaming nothing but "Oblits!", naturally leads to more Obliterator users.

It is not a "simple fact" that Obliterators are more useful. I will never use Obliterators again because their flexibility is redundant and what I actually need from HS is long range fire, something predators and havocs do better.

Night Lords wrote:

It is not a "simple fact" that Obliterators are more useful. I will never use Obliterators again because their flexibility is redundant and what I actually need from HS is long range fire, something predators and havocs do better.

If you only use the lascannons on them, or only the plasma cannons i would say yes, predators are a better choice. However, explain how havocs are a good choice? they are so expensive and immobile. Predators can lay down some fire and move, while havocs can do the same, just cant move and are softer than AV13 and are more expensive than a predator.

Back to the point, obliterators are well worth it depending on how you use them. Some people like to deepstrike and multi-melta tanks. Its an alright strategy, but ultimetly a very expensive termicide. Personally, i run 2 squads of oblits. I deploy one of them and keep the others in deepstrike. Then i deepstrike them onto an icon farther up the feild where they can wreak havoc but not get destroyed due to good deepstrikes. And in my senarios, the 3 weapons i use most often, and in most games, are lascannons (for deployed obliterators who make a slow advance), Plasmacannons, and multimeltas. Yet on several occasions i have used their twin-linked plasma guns and twin-linked flamers when i was in a tight spot. This is why people like obliterators it is due to their flexibility, yes often times they can be redundant and all the options are not needed. But when the time comes and you need their flexibility, then you are saved. I use mine for their long range anti-tank, their stronger close range anti-tank, and their strong anti-crowd abilities, and on top of that, they can hold their own with 2+ armor, 5+ invulnerable, and 2 wounds.

On havocs, you cannot even obtain plasmacannons or multi-meltas. You cannot have moving lascannons and no twin-linked special weapons like obliterators can have. Havocs are also fairly weak in comparison. A minimal squad of havocs with lascannon, plasma gun, meltagun, and flamer costs 140 points. For 10 points more you can have two obliterators, with all of the better options, and they are much tougher.

I think the only way people can go wrong with Oblits is having them as their only HS choice in 1500+ games.

My list is losing the combi flamers on the preds to put icons on all 4 squads so I can deepstrike the Oblits if I want to. Having them DS doesn't hurt me too much on the first few turns because of the firepower of the preds.

Out of all the HS Chaos has I think Havocs are the only choice I never use in regular games. In CoD they are awsome and I use my 4 x AC and 4 x ML teams all the time. Night Lords what kind of Havoc teams do you use? and how do you use them? I'm curious because I've never had success with them.

mrwittwer wrote:

Night Lords wrote:

It is not a "simple fact" that Obliterators are more useful. I will never use Obliterators again because their flexibility is redundant and what I actually need from HS is long range fire, something predators and havocs do better.

If you only use the lascannons on them, or only the plasma cannons i would say yes, predators are a better choice. However, explain how havocs are a good choice? they are so expensive and immobile. Predators can lay down some fire and move, while havocs can do the same, just cant move and are softer than AV13 and are more expensive than a predator.
----------------------------------------------------------

On havocs, you cannot even obtain plasmacannons or multi-meltas. You cannot have moving lascannons and no twin-linked special weapons like obliterators can have. Havocs are also fairly weak in comparison. A minimal squad of havocs with lascannon, plasma gun, meltagun, and flamer costs 140 points. For 10 points more you can have two obliterators, with all of the better options, and they are much tougher.

4 Havocs with autocannons are the best rhino/trukk/light transport killers we have. 155 points gets you 8 S7 shots every turn.

I dont need plasma cannons or multi-meltas because other units can fulfill those roles. I would never take a mixed squad like that. I wouldnt take havocs outside of Autocannons and Missle Launchers. Chaos needs to destroy transports so we can get into CC, and havocs are the optimal choice for that.

I would very much argue that Obliterators are *not* tougher than havocs simply because you have more bodies. Both are going to get 4+ saves in cover, and what kind of weapons are going to be able to hit them at 48" away? Likely S8+ Ap2- weapons. Neither is tougher than the other except losing one oblit is a lot worse than 1 havoc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Milkstorm wrote:
Out of all the HS Chaos has I think Havocs are the only choice I never use in regular games. In CoD they are awsome and I use my 4 x AC and 4 x ML teams all the time. Night Lords what kind of Havoc teams do you use? and how do you use them? I'm curious because I've never had success with them.

I play them as either 4 ACs/3ACs 1 Missile/2 ACs 2 Missiles. Their static nature has never been a problem even on the terrain heavy boards, as I position them to have LoS over key firing lanes to cover my rhinos.

I dont know why youve had trouble with 4ACs, but theyre simply the best odds to destroy light vehicles and to do damage to AV12.

Obliterators are *alot* stronger than predators. This is like chaos 101 night lord. Do you even play this game?

Anyway 1 thing about havocs a unit of 10 is the hardest target in the CSM heavy support section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Milkstorm just be sure to keep them in cover instant death is a big problem for obliterators. Also be sure to have anti tank in your squads in case you lose them mid game.

Obliterators are *alot* stronger than predators. This is like chaos 101 night lord. Do you even play this game?

Firstly, no need to get personal.
Secondly, they are apples and oranges, they work differently and can't be compared on a simplist 'stronger' scale.

Fact: Preds put out a higher maximum number of shots whether it be Anti-infantry or Anti-armor.
There is no better, there is only what you need and how you plan to get it.

I love Oblits, but they will not fit just any list. They do alot of things, but they don't do it all... the other hvy supports fill those other niches.

There are no wrong opinions. Getting personal has no place here.

I'm a strong supporter of Oblits, and constantly recommend their use, but if played incorrectly, they are just as bad as any other unit in the CSM arsenal. If a Pred fits Milk's style, then let him run with it. If he watches the Pred be ineffective for a few games, he might consider giving the Oblits a try. Same goes for Havos: He might have great success with them and choose to field them all the time.

I think play-style has more to do with a successful list than anything. Oblits are designed to sit back and pew-pew from a distance. If he wants to get in the thick, and get dirty, then maybe a Pred is the way to go.

Let's give our opinions, leave other's un-harrassed, and allow people to make judgements for themselves.

Night Lords wrote:
4 Havocs with autocannons are the best rhino/trukk/light transport killers we have. 155 points gets you 8 S7 shots every turn.

I would very much argue that Obliterators are *not* tougher than havocs simply because you have more bodies. Both are going to get 4+ saves in cover, and what kind of weapons are going to be able to hit them at 48" away? Likely S8+ Ap2- weapons. Neither is tougher than the other except losing one oblit is a lot worse than 1 havoc.

Well, first thing that comes to mind is battle cannons. Then i come to think about demolisher cannons, shorter range, but strength 10 ap 2. And certainly cappable of getting that close with cover and good strategy. And then i think about plasma cannons, only 36" range, but again, certainly do able, which havocs will die easily to. And of all 3 of these weapons, obliterators have better armor and an invulnerable if need be. And then there are things like guess weapons, which leave havocs considerably vulnerable, orbital bombardments, fire prisms and this is only taking into consideration blast weapons. Havocs have the disadvantage. And using your 155 point havoc squad, that is only 5 wounds... that is 1 wound more than 2 obliterators. I dont think this really constitutes a more wounds is better argument and to add more bodies would jack the price up considerably.

Example. I believe the dark reaper exarch has a strength 4 ap 3 assault 2, blast, guess weapon. We will assume both blasts hit. On the havocs he may hit 3 maybe 4 marines total, which is about 2 wounds at statistics. Even if he happens to kill the one marine who isnt carrying a heavy weapon you are down to 6 shots. And more than likely he will kill 2 of the autocannon gunners and then you are down to 4 shots and down quite a few points.

Example. Same scenario as above. Obliterators get their 2+ armor and odds say they will save both wounds made. But even if they didnt make their saves. They both take a wound and continue the beating. No weapons lost. And if out of the two blasts both of them happened to wound the same obliterator, to fail a 2+ save twice is simply just bad luck.

As far as the arguments go, obliterators are tougher.

mrwittwer wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
4 Havocs with autocannons are the best rhino/trukk/light transport killers we have. 155 points gets you 8 S7 shots every turn.

I would very much argue that Obliterators are *not* tougher than havocs simply because you have more bodies. Both are going to get 4+ saves in cover, and what kind of weapons are going to be able to hit them at 48" away? Likely S8+ Ap2- weapons. Neither is tougher than the other except losing one oblit is a lot worse than 1 havoc.

Well, first thing that comes to mind is battle cannons. Then i come to think about demolisher cannons, shorter range, but strength 10 ap 2. And certainly cappable of getting that close with cover and good strategy. And then i think about plasma cannons, only 36" range, but again, certainly do able, which havocs will die easily to. And of all 3 of these weapons, obliterators have better armor and an invulnerable if need be. And then there are things like guess weapons, which leave havocs considerably vulnerable, orbital bombardments, fire prisms and this is only taking into consideration blast weapons. Havocs have the disadvantage. And using your 155 point havoc squad, that is only 5 wounds... that is 1 wound more than 2 obliterators. I dont think this really constitutes a more wounds is better argument and to add more bodies would jack the price up considerably.

Example. I believe the dark reaper exarch has a strength 4 ap 3 assault 2, blast, guess weapon. We will assume both blasts hit. On the havocs he may hit 3 maybe 4 marines total, which is about 2 wounds at statistics. Even if he happens to kill the one marine who isnt carrying a heavy weapon you are down to 6 shots. And more than likely he will kill 2 of the autocannon gunners and then you are down to 4 shots and down quite a few points.

Example. Same scenario as above. Obliterators get their 2+ armor and odds say they will save both wounds made. But even if they didnt make their saves. They both take a wound and continue the beating. No weapons lost. And if out of the two blasts both of them happened to wound the same obliterator, to fail a 2+ save twice is simply just bad luck.

As far as the arguments go, obliterators are tougher.

Sorry, but I havnt had a problem with any of those units - likely because shooting at 6 guys in cover is near useless with them, especially when theyre not even the main threat. Or it could be the fact that those weapons are rarely ever seen/poor choice.

Not to mention your argument is completely biased. Assume both blasts hit? Hit 3 maybe 4 with a small blast?? More than likely he'll kill two autocannons??? These things are not likely in the least, and will never happen all at once.

Demolishers kill oblits easier than a squad of havocs. Plasma cannons, assuming the player isnt an idiot, is going to get 2 hits max - 2 saves failed by havocs means little compared oblits which lose half their squad. Fire prisms, ap2, again, oblits are worse and it IKs them.

But hey, lets not mention the vindicators, medusas, bright lances, lascannons, broadsides, multimeltas, firedragons, etc. which are all much more likely to appear than an orbital bombardment or dark reaper.


I run 6 men (with a rhino), but even 5 men is approximately needing around 12 hits to finish them off. If you have an IKing Ap2- weapon, it takes 4 to finish off the oblits.

Sorry, I dont see it.

Just want to throw in my lot with the havoc support crowd. Completely underestimated unit. Autocannons x4 is a crazy good and inexpensive unit that can kill almost anything( short of elite tanks/monoliths) very well and get 2 tries at doing for the price of one. Oblits are versatile and can deepstrike, but they are also extremely expensive in comparison and can only fire once with any chosen weapon. Not to mention their extreme sluggishness. Havocs aren't exactly fleet-of-foot but they can move when needed.

Would you rather have 1 shot from an oblit that is exactly the gun you need, or would you rather have 4 very good shots for the same price? Once you answer that question you can decide which is your best choice.

No one unit is a sure win or the best fit in every situation. People tend to think of oblits as the only heavy support you will ever need and it simply isn't true. Mixing a squad of oblits with 1 or 2 squads of havocs can be devastating to your opponent simply from the cheap massed fire it provides while having your oblits to guarantee you can hurt anything your opponent brings.

Night Lords wrote:

Demolishers kill oblits easier than a squad of havocs.

This made me lol Oblits have an invulnerable. We will drop a demolisher cannon on a 5 man squad of havocs and a 2 man squad of oblits. Under equal conditions, at least oblits have a chance to survive.

Also, im wondering why running havocs in a rhino makes sense. Also wondering how you plan to always have your havocs in cover, but still be able to shoot everything you want. But i really dont need your answer for that.

Im not going to argue further. My point was made.

Because this is Coverhammer 40k? Unless I get a really bad corner in spearhead, there is always cover. Its also not hard to see enemy units with True Line of Sight (which is a garbage rule, but atleast it helps them).

Also, the Rhino doesnt stay with them, it moves ahead with the rest of the army.

Instant death + greater number of wounds is the reason havocs are tougher. Someone brought up invulnerable saves... havocs and obliterators both ought to be in cover so it's 4++ either way.

I'm enjoying the discusion going on in this thread, though its mostly been about Chaos HS choices ( ironically the slot thats least changed in my list ).

I played again tonight and almost tabled a Tau mech list. Its balanced, and suits my style. The plague marine special weapons have been a godsend, and the way I've done the combi weapons on their champs makes me feel all warm inside because it has worked out great. The flamer squad having a combi-melta and the melta squad having a combi-flamer has come up so far in both games. Though I have been toying with turning the flamer squad into a plasma squad and giving both combi flamers. Plasma is so important against nids now.

BUT I had an idea, I'm going to start a thread in tactics about Chaos heavy support choices. I'm going to try to start off the discusion focusing on long range fire support. So anyone in here that wants to continue the discussion about tactics for Chaos HS choices come on over.

looks like a great list. I usually drop Rhinos and use a LR filled with zerkers and rhinos from small squads of Plague Marines