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I have never in 12 years taken a leman russ without sponsons. Now especially that you can fire the sponsons in addition to your ordinance. I really do not understand the argument for not taking them. "Because you can move and shoot everything!" To that I beg the question why are you moving? I tend to play on terrain heavy boards but I still don't move very often...

it may have to do with the fact I almost always run a trio of basilisks which makes hiding from me futile and that in turn frees my battle tanks from having to play hide and seek

As for which leman russes to use, you can never go wrong with a basic battle tank. Especially putting pask in one it becomes the perfect all-rounder. I am an old time guard player and I was traumatized by our lack of anti-AV14 ability prior to this codex. So for me the tank to take is the vanquisher with pask. He knocked out two land raiders in a single game, you just cant argue with that. The punisher and eradicator are mediocre choices at best and only really shine if you know who you are fighting which doesn't happen in a tournament setting. The exterminator goes from mediocre to amazing with pask, but given that pask can only be in one tank at a time and I favour the vanquisher, I rarely field it. I think people have already talked to death the demolisher and executioner.

Here is my all-star heavy support

Leman Russ Executioner with side sponson plasma cannon
Leman Russ Vanquisher with Pask and side sponson multi-melta
3 Basilisks

This allows you to fight every type of army out there

As for the Basilisk, don't you find the huge minimum range to be a deal breaker?

As for moving and shooting, if you're using the LRBT you can snipe things from across the table maybe but the Executioner and Demolisher both have shorter range weapons meaning you are more likely to be moving. There is also the issue of a non-moving tank being easy bait for Kraks or Power Fists on your rear armor. However the main issue is the added expensive. Sure the LRBT + HB sponsons is still fairly cheap but when you get to the Executioner + PC sponsons, you're talking about a very expensive piece of equipment and part of me has to ask if its worth it.

Maybe this is because I'm a Marine player and I wish we had access to a tank that could move/fire its weapons to full effect instead of being an armored pillbox.

minigun762 wrote:As for the Basilisk, don't you find the huge minimum range to be a deal breaker?

As for moving and shooting, if you're using the LRBT you can snipe things from across the table maybe but the Executioner and Demolisher both have shorter range weapons meaning you are more likely to be moving. There is also the issue of a non-moving tank being easy bait for Kraks or Power Fists on your rear armor. However the main issue is the added expensive. Sure the LRBT + HB sponsons is still fairly cheap but when you get to the Executioner + PC sponsons, you're talking about a very expensive piece of equipment and part of me has to ask if its worth it.

Maybe this is because I'm a Marine player and I wish we had access to a tank that could move/fire its weapons to full effect instead of being an armored pillbox.

Ah , thats what i do different than other IG players. Most people field their basilisk far back center of their table edge , but i dont.
I place my 2 basilisk on each corner of my table edge. The criss cross angles easily compensate for the minimum range . Im not good with math ,
but its geometry :3

but if i go with a Basilisk's AP3, i might as well go with the Vanilla Russ' AP3.
and i agree with the sponsons = possiblely useful longer.
not to mention all of my Demolishers and Executioners have been modeled with sponsons...

Hmm the rules might have changed since i last play.
But Basilisk had indirect fire , ( is ordnance weapon all indirect now? )

LunaHound wrote:Hmm the rules might have changed since i last play.
But Basilisk had indirect fire , ( is ordnance weapon all indirect now? )

Page 58. You can shoot Ordnance Barrage either directly or indirectly. Certain units ( like the IG Colossus and Griffon ) may have specific restrictions that deny them the ability to shoot directly.

LunaHound wrote:

minigun762 wrote:As for the Basilisk, don't you find the huge minimum range to be a deal breaker?

As for moving and shooting, if you're using the LRBT you can snipe things from across the table maybe but the Executioner and Demolisher both have shorter range weapons meaning you are more likely to be moving. There is also the issue of a non-moving tank being easy bait for Kraks or Power Fists on your rear armor. However the main issue is the added expensive. Sure the LRBT + HB sponsons is still fairly cheap but when you get to the Executioner + PC sponsons, you're talking about a very expensive piece of equipment and part of me has to ask if its worth it.

Maybe this is because I'm a Marine player and I wish we had access to a tank that could move/fire its weapons to full effect instead of being an armored pillbox.

Ah , thats what i do different than other IG players. Most people field their basilisk far back center of their table edge , but i dont.
I place my 2 basilisk on each corner of my table edge. The criss cross angles easily compensate for the minimum range . Im not good with math ,
but its geometry :3

that requires 2 Heavy slots to pull off. if they are in a squadron together, they'd have to be set up together.
and i currently have only 1 heavy slot to use.

and @Volkov
i agree on 2 points with you. i've amost always put sponsons on my Russes. and i also like the Vanquisher.
but in the current list i'm working on, Melta Vets and Vendy's are going for the lion's share of armor hunting.
i'm really lacking on the AP 2 front.

Oops forgot about that part :'P

What do you guys use for front sponson? I always use lascannon for early anti tank threat.

LunaHound wrote:Oops forgot about that part :'P

What do you guys use for front sponson? I always use lascannon for early anti tank threat.

For LRBT I use Lascannons for exactly that reason.
For LRD I use Lascannons because I want a high S AP2 shot to match the Demolisher.
For LR Executioner, I'd probably just use a Heavy Bolter to keep it cheaper and help stack extra wounds on MCs/infantry

LunaHound wrote:Oops forgot about that part :'P

What do you guys use for front sponson? I always use lascannon for early anti tank threat.

i have Demolishers, LR and Executioners set up with each Lascannons and heavy bolters both.
i tend to favor the HB for economic reasons.

As for the Basilisk, don't you find the huge minimum range to be a deal breaker?

Not at All 90% of the time I am firing my basilisks direct. TLOS has really changed the nature of indirect weapons. The few times I do fire indirect is to ignore intervening terrain providing cover not because they are out of sight. If I think its anywhere close to 36" I direct fire. Having said that it is a great psychological weapon. People think there is no point trying to hide out of sight. For real fun combine it with the demolisher (I have never been wowed by the demolisher but it is a great area denial weapon)

Volkov wrote:

As for the Basilisk, don't you find the huge minimum range to be a deal breaker?

Not at All 90% of the time I am firing my basilisks direct. TLOS has really changed the nature of indirect weapons. The few times I do fire indirect is to ignore intervening terrain providing cover not because they are out of sight. If I think its anywhere close to 36" I direct fire. Having said that it is a great psychological weapon. People think there is no point trying to hide out of sight. For real fun combine it with the demolisher (I have never been wowed by the demolisher but it is a great area denial weapon)

Interesting Volkov, I've heard alot of people write the Basilisk off but it sounds like it still works for you.
Question though, for 10/15 points more, you could take the Medusa and increase your overall anti-tank punch. Any reason you don't do this if you're DF most of the time anyway?

minigun762 wrote:

Volkov wrote:

As for the Basilisk, don't you find the huge minimum range to be a deal breaker?

Not at All 90% of the time I am firing my basilisks direct. TLOS has really changed the nature of indirect weapons. The few times I do fire indirect is to ignore intervening terrain providing cover not because they are out of sight. If I think its anywhere close to 36" I direct fire. Having said that it is a great psychological weapon. People think there is no point trying to hide out of sight. For real fun combine it with the demolisher (I have never been wowed by the demolisher but it is a great area denial weapon)

Interesting Volkov, I've heard alot of people write the Basilisk off but it sounds like it still works for you.
Question though, for 10/15 points more, you could take the Medusa and increase your overall anti-tank punch. Any reason you don't do this if you're DF most of the time anyway?

i know you didn't ask me, but the reason i don't run one is for the simple fact i can't afford to make 1. after making 2 Hydras and 1 Manticore(with enought bits to make a 2nd) i'm spent out at the moment...

Interesting Volkov, I've heard alot of people write the Basilisk off but it sounds like it still works for you.
Question though, for 10/15 points more, you could take the Medusa and increase your overall anti-tank punch. Any reason you don't do this if you're DF most of the time anyway?

Ya I run a basilisk-centric list at my LGS tournaments and people make fun of my list...until they play it. I actually fought someone with 3 medusas who couldn't believe I still used basilisks. Not one of those medusas fired a single shot the whole game. Which brings me to the reason I dont use them. Range. 36 inches can be avoided 240 cannot. I lost count of how many times my opponent will say during the traditional post game debrief "your basilisks won you the game"

Guess range or not , in an accurate guesser's hand the Basilisk are among the most accurate weapon IG have.

Starting to drift a little bit off topic here with artillery instead of russes, but anyhow.

You don't guess anymore. You just put the blast down and measure. If it's within range, yay! If not, pout.
And you can fire it direct or indirect as mentioned previously. The difference being that fired as barrage/indirectly you can't deduct your BS (3) from the scatter, you cannot move and fire and you count cover from the center of the blast instead of the firer.

My opponents usually weep when I field one basilisk, let alone three which I haven't done yet, but they are all modelled so I'm just waiting for the right moment.
The reason I like them is 1. range and 2. versatility. No mucking about with min range/single purpose shells.

I think it all comes down to my play style. I usually field vanilla russes with HB sponsons and LCs, basilisks as artillery and I normally try to keep my infantery as similar as possible. I like the idea of "I don't care if you shot my squad to pieces, I've got seven more just like it."

I know it sounds dull, but it works surprisingly well since there isn't one über-squad that gets all the attention but rather a ton (metric) of average units that together grind the opponent to, well, the ground, I guess.
The one time that I fielded the Manticore it definitely underwhelmed me. I know that others swear by it so I guess I'll have to give it another chance but for now it's basilisks FTW.

// b

(edited for readability)

berglin wrote:The difference being that fired as barrage/indirectly you can't deduct your BS (3) from the scatter...

You deduct your BS from scatter as long as you aren't taking advantage of the barrage weapon's ability to shoot at targets without LOS. Common mistake.

wouldn't be Dakka if a)topics didn't drift or b)people didn't flame!
my biggest concern with replacing Russes with Bassies are move and fire and the more fragile AV12.
to me being able to move and fire Ordnance is nice. and i'm already running an AV12 Manticore, so i
don't know if i'd feel comfortable having all of my HS as AV12 vehicles.

The Basilisk can move and still fire directly, but open top AV12 is a valid concern. Against most things that aren't vehicles the battle cannon's almost as good and much tougher for not much higher cost. I like to live dangerously and use the Basilisk but that's largely a matter of preference.

Raxmei wrote:The Basilisk can move and still fire directly, but open top AV12 is a valid concern. Against most things that aren't vehicles the battle cannon's almost as good and much tougher for not much higher cost. I like to live dangerously and use the Basilisk but that's largely a matter of preference.

my bad, i was getting Ord. confused with Ord. barrage!!

the rest of the list:

CCS 145
4 meltas
chimera

Inq. lord 155
emp tarrot
psychic hood
2 mystics
3 vets w/ plasma

Marbo 65

3 - vet sqds 465
3 melta ea.
2 chimera
(2 sqds in the Vendys, Inq. in 1 of the Chimera)

2 - Vendettas 260

Manticore 160

2 Hydras 150

comes to 1399 and i'm shooting for 1850.

Well I would like to point out that a trio of basilisks and a third hydra would be 450 points and in my opinion round our your list very nicely
Now I hear your concerns over AV12 and open topped. But you would have by my count 12 vehicles in this army and if you play aggressively with your troops then the enemy will focus more on the chimeras and vendettas barreling towards them rather than your heavy support in the back

Now I too have always fretted over a lack of ap2 weaponry, but after playing a grey knight termi heavy army and a deathwing army my fears really got alleviated. Sure you cant drop them like flies but they still can die from conventional weapons, not to mention so many terminators are packing storm shields that ap2 wont do a whole lot for you

As for what leman russ would be best...A pair of basic battle tanks would be the safest bet. It wouldnt leave any holes in your list. Or a vanquisher with knight commander pask and then 3 plasma cannon sentinels. That will give you anti tank and anti MEQ

Basic Russ w/ plasma cannon sponsons. That's just my preference.

Raxmei wrote:

berglin wrote:The difference being that fired as barrage/indirectly you can't deduct your BS (3) from the scatter...

You deduct your BS from scatter as long as you aren't taking advantage of the barrage weapon's ability to shoot at targets without LOS. Common mistake.

And how is that not exactly what I said?

"... that [when] fired as barrage ..."

I'll try to be clearer next time.
Sorry.

Back on topic. A trio of basilisks would raise quite a few eyebrows. Not to mention that it would completely annihilate almost any unit on the board. But since you mentioned you didn't have any basilisks available, I'd go with the vanilla russes. At least they will draw enough fire from your manticore to let it do its job properly and might even get to fire all of its rockets.
As for sentinels, I usually prefer the LC variant. Slightly cheaper and you can use the scout variant tp get even cheaper. Then outflank to get a good shot at the back of some tanks or starting to lay down AP2 fire from behind on termies. It always make the opponent go slightly wide eyed when they suddenly realize that they have an, admittedly, not too tough target in the rear, but still one that can't be ignored since it insta-deaths most units and with three of them, you will score at least one hit per turn, making the squadron impossible to ignore. Especially with the 48" range meaning that they will likely be in range of most targets from the moment they arrive.

Oh, man. I really need to get a game going soon!

And how is that not exactly what I said?

"... that [when] fired as barrage ..."

It kind of sounds like both of you are wrong but I may be misreading it.

Barrage deducts your BS if you see your target. And scatters the full distance if you cannot see your target. Barrage is not only fired when the target is out of sight

Just a reminder to the poster a few back. The Storm Shield only affects close combat, it won't do anything for plasma or other ap2 being shot at it. But I think I will take that advice myself. I'm revamping my Guard for the current edition. Will go with a regular LRBT and a Vanquisher with Pask I think. Basilisk to back it up. Already have those minis.

Volkov wrote:

And how is that not exactly what I said?

"... that [when] fired as barrage ..."

It kind of sounds like both of you are wrong but I may be misreading it.

Barrage deducts your BS if you see your target. And scatters the full distance if you cannot see your target. Barrage is not only fired when the target is out of sight

Wow. That's not how I've read the rules, but I may very well be mistaken. It makes barrage even more attractive since it removes cover saves granted from direct LOS.
I'm gonna look it up when I get home.

Thanks.

Yes, when firing Barrage, you do get to deduct your BS if the target is in LOS.
Another advantage for Barrage over direct fire that is frequently forgotten is that against vehicles, you resolve Ordnance Barrage against side armor, not against facing armor.
And Ringarin, depends on which version of the storm shield. The newest Space Marine Storm Shield works against shooting as well as hth.

Huh, didn't notice that. That's one of the reasons I post here.

Yep, I've had as many as 20 SS/TH termies slogging across the table towards my IG. It was terrible, I had to finish killing them in hth..................

Yes, when firing Barrage, you do get to deduct your BS if the target is in LOS.
Another advantage for Barrage over direct fire that is frequently forgotten is that against vehicles, you resolve Ordnance Barrage against side armor, not against facing armor.

You are right i did forget about that

Huh, didn't notice that. That's one of the reasons I post here.

Well it looks like you are a dark angel player so to you its still only in hand to hand