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Defilers are just COOL, that's why I like them. Oblits and Defilers, that's about it, unless I need a landraider for mobile assault.

mini - well the dread is still winning most of the time and is the cheaper unit. basically if the dread wiffs its attacks its doomed because a 4 ccw defiler rolls *alot* of dice on the charge.

In my experience the best CSM HS is the predator.

Defiler's are too big to have a AV12. Way to easy to kill.

Havocs are too expensive.

Obliterators are overrated. They are premium targets and VERY easy to kill. Lascannons, Pulse Lasers (my personal most hated weapon), Meltaguns, and the ubiquitous TH/SS terminator all destroy them outright. When facing those weapons any other HS is better: havocs just lose useless guys and the preds have a better chance to shrug off the hots without and damage.

Land raiders disgust me. I'll gladly pay 30 more points to have all the goodies the SM LR has. I'm too bitter about how much better SM land raiders are to use them. Occasionally I'll take mine as a berzerker delivery unit and thats it. Useless compared to the SM version. So very bitter.

Which leaves vind/preds. Here is why I like them. My army is all mounted in rhinos. Taking the preds/vinds makes the enemy choose where he is going to use his anti tank: the transports or the HS. either way, unles hes very lucky and kills everything in one shot, SOMETHING is going to be unscathed. a 115 point dakka pred with 6 S5 AP4, 2 S7 AP4 and a TL S5 AP5 blast will SHRED infantry. and a good vind blast will do more than any obliterators can do.

agree about defilers.

disagree about havocs. they're expensive true but tough as nails. they shoot the whole game long, as opposed to obliterators, which a good player can finish off by turn 3 latest. not the most flexible, but def. the most reliable.

finally an amen about instant death and obliterators. besides the models suck.

agree about land raiders. though in fairness imperial raiders blow big chunks too.

agree about vindicators. cheap, scary, distracting, in the way, big gun. whats not to like?

but predators? really? this thing is way easier to kill than the havocs, or even the obliterators, cant move and shoot to full effect, cant shoot in cover to full effect, and even when shooting at full effect isn't that strong. imo this is a b unit at best. the dakka predator is a bargain for what it costs.... but at 2 attacks a man chaos doesnt really have a problem with hordes... does it...

depends on how you run your army....im working on a chaos list... all speed w/ power weapons/meltas and the like... then 3 groups of havocs...lol..fear the krak missiles !

seriously though...consider that many krak missiles going down range for light-medium armor, anti MCs, Instant death wounds, template for hordes... its just...i dunno awesome

Oblits aren't that bad! they can move and shoot, have an invul save and they can get in cover and get that sweet coversave coupled with the 3 laz, melta, plasma shots they will be firing with

For most people out there, Oblits are the yardstick to measure all other Heavies by and that makes sense considering how versatile they are.

GloryToThe16th wrote:

but predators? really? this thing is way easier to kill than the havocs, or even the obliterators, cant move and shoot to full effect, cant shoot in cover to full effect, and even when shooting at full effect isn't that strong. imo this is a b unit at best. the dakka predator is a bargain for what it costs.... but at 2 attacks a man chaos doesnt really have a problem with hordes... does it...

There is virtually no long range shooting that can destroy the predator. They are far more sturdy than havocs or obliterators. Shooting at full effect isnt that strong...yet point for point they have more shots than any other unit.....

Night Lords wrote:
There is virtually no long range shooting that can destroy the predator. They are far more sturdy than havocs or obliterators. Shooting at full effect isnt that strong...yet point for point they have more shots than any other unit.....

A single lascannon shot? 4 to glance. and 5+ to penetrate? Maybe im not following what you are saying, but there are ALOT of things that can kill a predator at range.

In all fairness that Predator should also be getting a 4+ cover save in most situations.

For me, the big knock against Predators is that they can be stunned and unlike Vindicators, D. Possession is not a valid option.

Lascannon has approximately 5% chance to destroy as guard. That means it takes 20 shots to get 1 kill.

Honestly, havocs with assault weapons are awesome.

It provides you with another rhino for the enemy to worry about, and while it's a juicy kill point in 1/3 missions, in others it's a box of death that doesn't help them achieve mission objectives. Load them with 4 meltaguns for tank killing or 4 flamers for some nasty anti-infantry.

And honestly, it's all about the flamers. Vindicator and predator both suck because the enemy will usually have either armour or cover, and when you have cover you can gtg for a 3+ save. It severely limits their effectiveness. Plus why do a dakka pred over an ordnance template? 8 shots, 5 hit, 4-5 wound. I'd rather hit a swarm with a template that can cover 14. Ordnance templates synergize well with lash, too.

Oblits can have flamers and meltaguns, making them a good choice. But 5 havocs with 4 flamers in a rhino with a combi weapon only costs 140 points and really massacres almost anything it touches that's infantry. Even power armoured enemies have trouble with that, and there's no cover save involved.

Or for simply 20 points more, you have a unit that's very likely to pop an enemy tank. As an aside, the unit is also decent in close combat, depending on the target. 2 oblits [for the same cost] would work better against something hard, but for other infantry, 5 charging CSM works pretty darn well.

Picture a chaos army that has 6 squads in rhinos, 3 chosen in rhinos, 3 havocs in rhinos, and 2 lash princes. That's a lot of scariness!

minigun762 wrote:In all fairness that Predator should also be getting a 4+ cover save in most situations.

For me, the big knock against Predators is that they can be stunned and unlike Vindicators, D. Possession is not a valid option.

I find it rediculous that everyone expects everything to be in cover, always. i have to wonder how much cover the boards dakkadites play on. BRB suggests around 40% cover which i usually play with more and i dont get cover saves on everything.

Lascannon has approximately 5% chance to destroy as guard. That means it takes 20 shots to get 1 kill.

This i do not believe. Explain out the math on this one. and if this is true, landraiders and monoliths would be nearly invincible to lascannons, which really is not the case.

And also, i dont believe you take into accounts on side armor. Which can easily happen.

The issue with cover is simple in my mind, you're guns have a 48" range so you should be parked in area terrain or have some sort of Rhino/walker blocking you. This is also the best way to protect its side armor, namely keeping it tucked away so the only angle presented is its front.

The big drawback to Predators (besides being stunned) is that Termicide/Pod Zoas and the like will often drop in and fry it and those kind of units rarely care if they're shooting AV13 or AV11.

The math is fairly simple. Notice he said destroyed, not stunned/immobilize or anything else.
1 shot = 0.5 hits = 0.167 penetrating hits = 0.055 wrecked/destroyed so roughly 5-6% with rounding.

EDIT: Side armor would be 1 = 0.5 = 0.33 = 0.11

I recently started playing chaos daemons, and this made me realize how little cover really matters, unless you are in area cover. And also playing daemons, armor means little since most everything is 10 in the back.

Since realizing that range means nothing with good tactics, i tend to pick my units whether or not they can defend from all angles. I dont mean just landraiders, but how well units can react to things such as deepstrike, close combat, outflanking. Predators cannot move, otherwise they really arent effective, so no escaping or good positioning.

On predators, one glancing hit makes them useless, something i really dont want. Vindicators could have the same argument, but they can easily be possessed, this way only higher level damage will hurt. Even so vindicators arent the best choice IMO. The defiler is everything i want, possessed, good CC ablity, very flexible. And its 12 12 10 not 13 11 10. So side shots dont hurt more.

Arguements can be made both ways on the predator. Relying on it only surviving at long range is a big risk, especially with all the large amounts of fast moving melta out there.

mrwittwer wrote:
On predators, one glancing hit makes them useless, something i really dont want. Vindicators could have the same argument, but they can easily be possessed, this way only higher level damage will hurt. Even so vindicators arent the best choice IMO. The defiler is everything i want, possessed, good CC ablity, very flexible. And its 12 12 10 not 13 11 10. So side shots dont hurt more.

I agree. I like the flexibility of the Defiler and the fact that it has no real obvious weakness like the Predator (stunlocked) or Vindicator (side armor and short range).

Stunlocked preds are a good thing. Please, continue to waste your anti tank on my 130 point predator. Not only that, it still takes 4 lascannons to do it.

With the issue of a predator is cover is that you need to be immobile to fire alll weapons, all the enemy needs to do is keep his units in cover away from the predators LOS and they're safe. You move out of the way of a defiler or oblits and they can move and fire

night lord you wrote "there is virtually no long range shooting that can destroy a predator." and: "it takes 20 shots to get 1 kill."

whatever.

GloryToThe16th wrote:night lord you wrote "there is virtually no long range shooting that can destroy a predator." and: "it takes 20 shots to get 1 kill."

whatever.

And your point? Im not sure who has that many lascannons (even guard focuses on autocannons more) to spare when there are 6 other vehicles running at you.

So again, there are virtually no long range shooting that can destroy a predator. Point stands.

my point is that the only thing dumber than what you just said would be me trying to argue you out of it.

Night Lords wrote:

GloryToThe16th wrote:night lord you wrote "there is virtually no long range shooting that can destroy a predator." and: "it takes 20 shots to get 1 kill."

whatever.

And your point? Im not sure who has that many lascannons (even guard focuses on autocannons more) to spare when there are 6 other vehicles running at you.

So again, there are virtually no long range shooting that can destroy a predator. Point stands.

Every single IG army I have fought has been filled with lazcannons, Battle cannons, Demolishers and melta; all of which can decimate a predator. Vendettas, Leaman Russes, Vetrans with meltas, ect ect.

But most of those weapons can kill obliterators even easier. Predators are more durable than Obliterators, and their range is better than vindicators.

They are an excellent choice, and better than obliterators, IMO, as long as the rest of your list is competent and versatile.

willydstyle wrote:But most of those weapons can kill obliterators even easier. Predators are more durable than Obliterators, and their range is better than vindicators.

They are an excellent choice, and better than obliterators, IMO, as long as the rest of your list is competent and versatile.

But Oblits can move and fire, in a squad of 3 they can move and fire 3 weapons how many can a pred fire? one. Oblits in cover get a 4+ cover save making it easier to survive and they can actually stand iun close combat as logn as your not going up against a 25 man boyz mob. plus they can have better weapons than the pred, plasma canons, multi meltas and twin linked flamers anyone? i can't tell you how many dark eldar died under 3 twin linked flamer templated that just came out of deepstrike

But if you have a smart deployment, often you won't need to move much.

I'm not saying that obliterators are worthless, they're just not very efficient.

When you purchase obliterators you're sacrificing durability and efficiency for adaptability. If the rest of your list is adaptable, you often don't need it from obliterators.

predators are more durable but obliterators are more killy. the best way to deal with the things that instant kill the obliterators is to use the obliterators to kill them. predators don't deep strike, don't move and shoot to full effect, can't change weapons mid-game, cost more than a pair of obliterators, rarely benefit from cover, etc. obliterators are stronger. agree though that instant death and obliterators is annoying. run meltas in your tactical squads so you're not left hanging when not if they die.

GloryToThe16th wrote:my point is that the only thing dumber than what you just said would be me trying to argue you out of it.

Do you know what the word "virtually" is? Please grow up with the insults as well, there is no room for that here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GloryToThe16th wrote:predators are more durable but obliterators are more killy. the best way to deal with the things that instant kill the obliterators is to use the obliterators to kill them. predators don't deep strike, don't move and shoot to full effect, can't change weapons mid-game, cost more than a pair of obliterators, rarely benefit from cover, etc. obliterators are stronger. agree though that instant death and obliterators is annoying. run meltas in your tactical squads so you're not left hanging when not if they die.

Predators are more durable and more killy with their targets. Predators are CHEAPER than 2 oblits. Oblits are flexible. That's it.

Night Lords wrote:
Predators are more durable and more killy with their targets. Predators are CHEAPER than 2 oblits. Oblits are flexible. That's it.

Oblits are more killy due to more weapons, move and shoot, close combat, and deepstrike. Oblits are more flexible due to the wide range of weaponry and move and shoot. Predators and oblits both will die to melta, lascannons, (whether or not you are willing to admit it) and any other high strength weapons. When oblits are in cover they can still fire all weapons, predators cannot... Predators are larger making it harder for them to get in cover, and are generally immobile, oblits are not. Predators are cheaper.

Its clear to me which one is superior.

mrwittwer wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Predators are more durable and more killy with their targets. Predators are CHEAPER than 2 oblits. Oblits are flexible. That's it.

Oblits are more killy due to more weapons, move and shoot, close combat, and deepstrike. Oblits are more flexible due to the wide range of weaponry and move and shoot. Predators and oblits both will die to melta, lascannons, (whether or not you are willing to admit it) and any other high strength weapons. When oblits are in cover they can still fire all weapons, predators cannot... Predators are larger making it harder for them to get in cover, and are generally immobile, oblits are not. Predators are cheaper.

Its clear to me which one is superior.

We can go in circles all day over this. Predators get more shots for less point. Oblits sucks in CC (so why mention it?). Preds can move 12".

And 1/20 lascannons destroying a predator, compared to ~1/2.5 for an obliterator...yes theyre equal... that makes a lot of sense....

If you want to use oblits, fine, but get your facts straight and list the advantages of both (and not useless "advantages" such as CC).

night lord you wrote: "we can go in circles all day over this"

only if we let you... only if we let you...